the complexities and beauty of haiku
butters said:do you have something to add to this discussion about what makes haiku what it is?
do you disagree with the parameters as posted at the top of the thread?
do you think it's time to broaden the accepted parameters to include a more relaxed notion of what makes a haiku poem?
Uninterestingly, I don't know anything about haikus. Just expressing my opinion on a side topic.
do you disagree with the parameters as posted at the top of the thread?
do you think it's time to broaden the accepted parameters to include a more relaxed notion of what makes a haiku poem?
Uninterestingly, I don't know anything about haikus. Just expressing my opinion on a side topic.
butters said:since i'd never met nor heard of you till 3 weeks ago, their interpretations are very odd.
having said that, in the spirit of the OP i'd like to see more discussion about the poem-form than those here only to disrupt.
turtle-head
It's kinda hard for some people to discuss what they don't understand.
butters said:
well, dayumn... i, for one, am not afraid to call a turtle a turtle.
regarding your post: is one image really acceptable? i'm willing to be educated. my own understanding was that the tension between the two (on the surface) opposing images was key, with the cutting word creating the about-face and reconciling the two to make that 'aha!' moment. i also 'get' that western haiku has adapted to include more 'people' content, but would say my favourites are those that don't include a person in the imagery but, instead, allow the extrapolation of the poem's 'sense' to include the human experience.
thanks for adding to this discussion. i love finding out more about a form's complexities... it can only help me write better. maybe one day i'll have a bigger file of haiku than senryus/faux-kus
No! a haiku shows a contrast or comparison between two different images, which constitutes a fragment offset by a phrase.
The first two lines set up a situation and the next line surprises (enlightens) the reader with a juxtaposition of images. This means that your haiku always need to be about two different things. These images can be similar (comparisons) or like opposites (contrasts).
Your haiku should be a two part structure:
1) a phrase using two lines -- the set up
2) a fragment, using one line -- the punch line
3) place a dash or ellipses between them
(some don't use any punctuation)
and
4) make sure there is a juxtaposition of images (compare, or contrast)
Conversely, the fragment can also be the first line, followed by the phrase in line two and three.
having said that, in the spirit of the OP i'd like to see more discussion about the poem-form than those here only to disrupt.
turtle-head
It's kinda hard for some people to discuss what they don't understand. butters said:
well, dayumn... i, for one, am not afraid to call a turtle a turtle.
regarding your post: is one image really acceptable? i'm willing to be educated. my own understanding was that the tension between the two (on the surface) opposing images was key, with the cutting word creating the about-face and reconciling the two to make that 'aha!' moment. i also 'get' that western haiku has adapted to include more 'people' content, but would say my favourites are those that don't include a person in the imagery but, instead, allow the extrapolation of the poem's 'sense' to include the human experience.
thanks for adding to this discussion. i love finding out more about a form's complexities... it can only help me write better. maybe one day i'll have a bigger file of haiku than senryus/faux-kus
No! a haiku shows a contrast or comparison between two different images, which constitutes a fragment offset by a phrase.
The first two lines set up a situation and the next line surprises (enlightens) the reader with a juxtaposition of images. This means that your haiku always need to be about two different things. These images can be similar (comparisons) or like opposites (contrasts).
Your haiku should be a two part structure:
1) a phrase using two lines -- the set up
2) a fragment, using one line -- the punch line
3) place a dash or ellipses between them
(some don't use any punctuation)
and
4) make sure there is a juxtaposition of images (compare, or contrast)
Conversely, the fragment can also be the first line, followed by the phrase in line two and three.
The debate is not specifically about haiku methinks, it encompasses all forms of poetry
1. Who decides what is a poem?
2. Who decides what is a good poem?
3. Who decides that rules have to be strictly adhered to?
4. Who decides that rules will not be broken?
5. Who decides what a haiku is?
6. Who decides what a sonnet is?
7. Who is in charge of Poetry?
8. Who decides who is master or student?
9. Who decides what poets are lazy and uneducated?
10. Who decides???????
Answer to all of these questions is every single member of DU. You can decide for yourself, you have that right, we all do as far as I'm concerned. All poets here are on a level playing field here I see no superiority exhibited apart from opinions. Like arseholes, we have all got one, as the saying goes. There is nothing wrong with writing a haiku about the tase of a bar of chocolate or the revving engine of a Harley and if the tip their hat to the modern 5 - 7 - 5 format then it is indeed a Haiku. It bends the rules, but rules were meant to be bending and breakable. We would not have modern poetry had it not been for the many beat poets of the sixties and revolutionary thinkers who have only added to the evolution of poetry. Otherwise, we would be stuck in the past going nowhere.
is poetry being policed here, is poetry being restricted from evolving, are opinions being censored now, do we never respond to direct provocation when invited to call something as elitist bullshit is that rhetorical? I remember recently taking down a post that was a bit ranty, I took it down and apologised to the person concerned. The response seemed tainted and was pretty much a parental telling off. I have regrets now
I should have left it up.
anyway I write Haiku lots of them and they are haiku because "I say so" as a pay homage to the form. You all have this right too regardless of education levels. Don't let anyone tell you different
1. Who decides what is a poem?
2. Who decides what is a good poem?
3. Who decides that rules have to be strictly adhered to?
4. Who decides that rules will not be broken?
5. Who decides what a haiku is?
6. Who decides what a sonnet is?
7. Who is in charge of Poetry?
8. Who decides who is master or student?
9. Who decides what poets are lazy and uneducated?
10. Who decides???????
Answer to all of these questions is every single member of DU. You can decide for yourself, you have that right, we all do as far as I'm concerned. All poets here are on a level playing field here I see no superiority exhibited apart from opinions. Like arseholes, we have all got one, as the saying goes. There is nothing wrong with writing a haiku about the tase of a bar of chocolate or the revving engine of a Harley and if the tip their hat to the modern 5 - 7 - 5 format then it is indeed a Haiku. It bends the rules, but rules were meant to be bending and breakable. We would not have modern poetry had it not been for the many beat poets of the sixties and revolutionary thinkers who have only added to the evolution of poetry. Otherwise, we would be stuck in the past going nowhere.
is poetry being policed here, is poetry being restricted from evolving, are opinions being censored now, do we never respond to direct provocation when invited to call something as elitist bullshit is that rhetorical? I remember recently taking down a post that was a bit ranty, I took it down and apologised to the person concerned. The response seemed tainted and was pretty much a parental telling off. I have regrets now
I should have left it up.
anyway I write Haiku lots of them and they are haiku because "I say so" as a pay homage to the form. You all have this right too regardless of education levels. Don't let anyone tell you different
While I encourage truth against disinformation and misinformation, truth is not a stick to hit people with until it sinks into their brain. There is a difference between knowing and teaching: just because you know and are smart, does not mean you should belittle others. That goes directed to all in the thread and threads.
While I like the message you are spreading butters you have spread it on incredibly thick to begin with. A discussion and or debate cannot exist if a definitive stance is taken where anything but 'x' is wrong. That is not discussion, that is dictation.
The thread purpose is misaligned with the audience; you could achieve so much more by encouraging rather than demanding; the thread's opening tone is one of demands and black and whites. It is already in a heated debate with forces and parties who are not present; it is all about I will tell, I will state, rather than I will show or guide. - That is an incredible difference in the near limitless confines of the internet: your audience is not a captive one and can talk back. If you force something onto them then the audience is more likely to push back.
Education and information is all well and good, but bloody hell, ask and try to use tact before injecting the encyclopedia into the bloodstream!
(If you think "i know this will fall on a lot of ears that don't want to hear it, a lot of eyes won't even read to the end." perhaps reconsider the message or way the message is conveyed? I highly doubt you need to or want to write something that is ignored.
Due to the precise nature of the Japanese language and the vagueries of the English language there is bound to be a mismatch in translation. Especially when the translation somewhat relies upon cultural practices. Not saying a perfect English Haiku cannot exist; but it is more likely for a 'comparatively similar' to exist rather than an ideal copy.
I would say that the tenets of haiku; specifically of avoiding titles, metaphors, and similies are of a normally different philosophy of thought to that of Western culture; that titles, metaphors and similies are somewhat ingrained into Western history and behaviour. That due to the language/languages (roots in Latin generally) and major influences (literacy based upon Christian teachings in the past) the haiku form is not that easy to understand and apply. Hence the bastardisation of the term: as with so many things it is boiled down to the easiest parts and spread wide, meaning that nuances are often lost and have to be relearnt.
Of course not to mention that haiku has the idea that the way words are presented on the page is itself an art, whereas many Western cultures apply the idea (somewhat unintentionally and unconsciously) that writing is a record, a record that then conveys art or is art but secondary to it being a record.
While I like the message you are spreading butters you have spread it on incredibly thick to begin with. A discussion and or debate cannot exist if a definitive stance is taken where anything but 'x' is wrong. That is not discussion, that is dictation.
The thread purpose is misaligned with the audience; you could achieve so much more by encouraging rather than demanding; the thread's opening tone is one of demands and black and whites. It is already in a heated debate with forces and parties who are not present; it is all about I will tell, I will state, rather than I will show or guide. - That is an incredible difference in the near limitless confines of the internet: your audience is not a captive one and can talk back. If you force something onto them then the audience is more likely to push back.
Education and information is all well and good, but bloody hell, ask and try to use tact before injecting the encyclopedia into the bloodstream!
(If you think "i know this will fall on a lot of ears that don't want to hear it, a lot of eyes won't even read to the end." perhaps reconsider the message or way the message is conveyed? I highly doubt you need to or want to write something that is ignored.
Due to the precise nature of the Japanese language and the vagueries of the English language there is bound to be a mismatch in translation. Especially when the translation somewhat relies upon cultural practices. Not saying a perfect English Haiku cannot exist; but it is more likely for a 'comparatively similar' to exist rather than an ideal copy.
I would say that the tenets of haiku; specifically of avoiding titles, metaphors, and similies are of a normally different philosophy of thought to that of Western culture; that titles, metaphors and similies are somewhat ingrained into Western history and behaviour. That due to the language/languages (roots in Latin generally) and major influences (literacy based upon Christian teachings in the past) the haiku form is not that easy to understand and apply. Hence the bastardisation of the term: as with so many things it is boiled down to the easiest parts and spread wide, meaning that nuances are often lost and have to be relearnt.
Of course not to mention that haiku has the idea that the way words are presented on the page is itself an art, whereas many Western cultures apply the idea (somewhat unintentionally and unconsciously) that writing is a record, a record that then conveys art or is art but secondary to it being a record.
Anonymous
#Education #Education #Education.
Ahavati said:
No! a haiku shows a contrast or comparison between two different images, which constitutes a fragment offset by a phrase.
The first two lines set up a situation and the next line surprises (enlightens) the reader with a juxtaposition of images. This means that your haiku always need to be about two different things. These images can be similar (comparisons) or like opposites (contrasts).
Your haiku should be a two part structure:
1) a phrase using two lines -- the set up
2) a fragment, using one line -- the punch line
3) place a dash or ellipses between them
(some don't use any punctuation)
and
4) make sure there is a juxtaposition of images (compare, or contrast)
Conversely, the fragment can also be the first line, followed by the phrase in line two and three.
oh, thanks, i misinterpreted your meaning here:
These days a haiku captures one or two moments by using clear and vivid images . . .
No! a haiku shows a contrast or comparison between two different images, which constitutes a fragment offset by a phrase.
The first two lines set up a situation and the next line surprises (enlightens) the reader with a juxtaposition of images. This means that your haiku always need to be about two different things. These images can be similar (comparisons) or like opposites (contrasts).
Your haiku should be a two part structure:
1) a phrase using two lines -- the set up
2) a fragment, using one line -- the punch line
3) place a dash or ellipses between them
(some don't use any punctuation)
and
4) make sure there is a juxtaposition of images (compare, or contrast)
Conversely, the fragment can also be the first line, followed by the phrase in line two and three.
oh, thanks, i misinterpreted your meaning here:
These days a haiku captures one or two moments by using clear and vivid images . . .
butters said:
oh, thanks, i misinterpreted your meaning here:
"These days a haiku captures one or two moments by using clear and vivid images . . ."
A juxtaposition or contrast can occur in one moment. Or, one moment can include a juxtaposition of contrast using clear and vivid images!
Sorry if that wasn't clear or vivid!
Miss_Sub said:#Education #Education #Education.
Would definitely help in these parts.
oh, thanks, i misinterpreted your meaning here:
"These days a haiku captures one or two moments by using clear and vivid images . . ."
A juxtaposition or contrast can occur in one moment. Or, one moment can include a juxtaposition of contrast using clear and vivid images!
Sorry if that wasn't clear or vivid!
Miss_Sub said:#Education #Education #Education.
Would definitely help in these parts.
I don't have much to add here. I've always been aware of Haiku. the site has long running love affair with the little beggars. I've only written them for competitions { syllable count, instil nature etc} to have written the form. through the years there've been different competitions with ideas and parameters. some were what I would consider super strict, some not so. I've never fallen in love with them
while I was reading this thread I remembered one shared by Jack some years ago. I went looking for it :
https://deepundergroundpoetry.com/forum/competitions/read/382/#10249
I reckon Jack was trying to educate us too in his own subliminal brainwash way. I miss Jack sometimes, then I remember. but I think his threrad ties in with what the lord Viddax more than touched upon at the start of his thoughts
while I was reading this thread I remembered one shared by Jack some years ago. I went looking for it :
https://deepundergroundpoetry.com/forum/competitions/read/382/#10249
I reckon Jack was trying to educate us too in his own subliminal brainwash way. I miss Jack sometimes, then I remember. but I think his threrad ties in with what the lord Viddax more than touched upon at the start of his thoughts
Viddax said:While I encourage truth against disinformation and misinformation, truth is not a stick to hit people with until it sinks into their brain. There is a difference between knowing and teaching: just because you know and are smart, does not mean you should belittle others. That goes directed to all in the thread and threads.
While I like the message you are spreading butters you have spread it on incredibly thick to begin with. A discussion and or debate cannot exist if a definitive stance is taken where anything but 'x' is wrong. That is not discussion, that is dictation.
The thread purpose is misaligned with the audience; you could achieve so much more by encouraging rather than demanding; the thread's opening tone is one of demands and black and whites. It is already in a heated debate with forces and parties who are not present; it is all about I will tell, I will state, rather than I will show or guide. - That is an incredible difference in the near limitless confines of the internet: your audience is not a captive one and can talk back. If you force something onto them then the audience is more likely to push back.
Education and information is all well and good, but bloody hell, ask and try to use tact before injecting the encyclopedia into the bloodstream!
(If you think "i know this will fall on a lot of ears that don't want to hear it, a lot of eyes won't even read to the end." perhaps reconsider the message or way the message is conveyed? I highly doubt you need to or want to write something that is ignored.
Due to the precise nature of the Japanese language and the vagueries of the English language there is bound to be a mismatch in translation. Especially when the translation somewhat relies upon cultural practices. Not saying a perfect English Haiku cannot exist; but it is more likely for a 'comparatively similar' to exist rather than an ideal copy.
I would say that the tenets of haiku; specifically of avoiding titles, metaphors, and similies are of a normally different philosophy of thought to that of Western culture; that titles, metaphors and similies are somewhat ingrained into Western history and behaviour. That due to the language/languages (roots in Latin generally) and major influences (literacy based upon Christian teachings in the past) the haiku form is not that easy to understand and apply. Hence the bastardisation of the term: as with so many things it is boiled down to the easiest parts and spread wide, meaning that nuances are often lost and have to be relearnt.
Of course not to mention that haiku has the idea that the way words are presented on the page is itself an art, whereas many Western cultures apply the idea (somewhat unintentionally and unconsciously) that writing is a record, a record that then conveys art or is art but secondary to it being a record.thankyou, viddax, for this.
yes, i agree my own opinions might sit badly with some people; i do find it frustrating when i see this kind of behaviour. just as i am free to express those same opinions (within limits), so are others entitled to come discuss/debate the issue through their own perspective. i'll consider my tone in further thread-starters to make it more palatable for general consumption, more honey than vinegar.
i'd like to have it noted i consider what i typed here far less "provocative" than the replies by a certain few members who didn't only 'push back' but attempted to drown out my post with unwarranted personal attacks. which remain and have been added to, compounding those already aimed my way by them in the short 3 weeks i've been here.
demands... hmmn, i saw the parameters as simple statements of fact as per the guidelines of credible experts, not me. i'm learning and will continue to do so. i've yet to see any of the detractors explain why we should expect poets to adhere to the parameters of certain forms in order to title them as such yet not the haiku. personally, i value an audience that is free to respond or not, to push back or agree or question; that's not exactly what has happened here, though.
4 japanese terms equates 'injecting the bloody encyclopedia'? oy vey
i guess i should have titled the thread "in case anyone's interested in understanding what a haiku is, i've included the 4 key terms and their explanations'. kinda thought my title was more inviting and easily understood that it might contain information, facts and shit. okay, you're right and lepp's right inasmuch as i should have prefaced the OP with a more explanatory note, one to reconcile what came next with what to expect. as i said, i'll keep that in mind for the future.
as to the rest of your post, thankyou for bringing this to the discussion. i agree with everything you say there; one thing, though, is that if we teach people incorrectly to start with, relearning those nuances is all that much harder. i'm not attempting to set myself up as a teacher; i know people hungry for information will learn, those lacking interest don't need me trying to teach them.
i'm more concerned with displacing the fake information with the real stuff, which is kind of important to anyone who might wish to submit their work in the future to publications outside of DUP.
While I like the message you are spreading butters you have spread it on incredibly thick to begin with. A discussion and or debate cannot exist if a definitive stance is taken where anything but 'x' is wrong. That is not discussion, that is dictation.
The thread purpose is misaligned with the audience; you could achieve so much more by encouraging rather than demanding; the thread's opening tone is one of demands and black and whites. It is already in a heated debate with forces and parties who are not present; it is all about I will tell, I will state, rather than I will show or guide. - That is an incredible difference in the near limitless confines of the internet: your audience is not a captive one and can talk back. If you force something onto them then the audience is more likely to push back.
Education and information is all well and good, but bloody hell, ask and try to use tact before injecting the encyclopedia into the bloodstream!
(If you think "i know this will fall on a lot of ears that don't want to hear it, a lot of eyes won't even read to the end." perhaps reconsider the message or way the message is conveyed? I highly doubt you need to or want to write something that is ignored.
Due to the precise nature of the Japanese language and the vagueries of the English language there is bound to be a mismatch in translation. Especially when the translation somewhat relies upon cultural practices. Not saying a perfect English Haiku cannot exist; but it is more likely for a 'comparatively similar' to exist rather than an ideal copy.
I would say that the tenets of haiku; specifically of avoiding titles, metaphors, and similies are of a normally different philosophy of thought to that of Western culture; that titles, metaphors and similies are somewhat ingrained into Western history and behaviour. That due to the language/languages (roots in Latin generally) and major influences (literacy based upon Christian teachings in the past) the haiku form is not that easy to understand and apply. Hence the bastardisation of the term: as with so many things it is boiled down to the easiest parts and spread wide, meaning that nuances are often lost and have to be relearnt.
Of course not to mention that haiku has the idea that the way words are presented on the page is itself an art, whereas many Western cultures apply the idea (somewhat unintentionally and unconsciously) that writing is a record, a record that then conveys art or is art but secondary to it being a record.thankyou, viddax, for this.
yes, i agree my own opinions might sit badly with some people; i do find it frustrating when i see this kind of behaviour. just as i am free to express those same opinions (within limits), so are others entitled to come discuss/debate the issue through their own perspective. i'll consider my tone in further thread-starters to make it more palatable for general consumption, more honey than vinegar.
i'd like to have it noted i consider what i typed here far less "provocative" than the replies by a certain few members who didn't only 'push back' but attempted to drown out my post with unwarranted personal attacks. which remain and have been added to, compounding those already aimed my way by them in the short 3 weeks i've been here.
demands... hmmn, i saw the parameters as simple statements of fact as per the guidelines of credible experts, not me. i'm learning and will continue to do so. i've yet to see any of the detractors explain why we should expect poets to adhere to the parameters of certain forms in order to title them as such yet not the haiku. personally, i value an audience that is free to respond or not, to push back or agree or question; that's not exactly what has happened here, though.
4 japanese terms equates 'injecting the bloody encyclopedia'? oy vey
i guess i should have titled the thread "in case anyone's interested in understanding what a haiku is, i've included the 4 key terms and their explanations'. kinda thought my title was more inviting and easily understood that it might contain information, facts and shit. okay, you're right and lepp's right inasmuch as i should have prefaced the OP with a more explanatory note, one to reconcile what came next with what to expect. as i said, i'll keep that in mind for the future.
as to the rest of your post, thankyou for bringing this to the discussion. i agree with everything you say there; one thing, though, is that if we teach people incorrectly to start with, relearning those nuances is all that much harder. i'm not attempting to set myself up as a teacher; i know people hungry for information will learn, those lacking interest don't need me trying to teach them.
i'm more concerned with displacing the fake information with the real stuff, which is kind of important to anyone who might wish to submit their work in the future to publications outside of DUP.
lepperochan said:I don't have much to add here. I've always been aware of Haiku. the site has long running love affair with the little beggars. I've only written them for competitions { syllable count, instil nature etc} to have written the form. through the years there've been different competitions with ideas and parameters. some were what I would consider super strict, some not so. I've never fallen in love with them
while I was reading this thread I remembered one shared by Jack some years ago. I went looking for it :
https://deepundergroundpoetry.com/forum/competitions/read/382/#10249
I reckon Jack was trying to educate us too in his own subliminal brainwash way. I miss Jack sometimes, then I remember. but I think his threrad ties in with what the lord Viddax more than touched upon at the start of his thoughts
well he more or less has it right, though a senryu is a similar form--not a haiku
i am interested, though, in the term 'brainwash'. what do you mean?
while I was reading this thread I remembered one shared by Jack some years ago. I went looking for it :
https://deepundergroundpoetry.com/forum/competitions/read/382/#10249
I reckon Jack was trying to educate us too in his own subliminal brainwash way. I miss Jack sometimes, then I remember. but I think his threrad ties in with what the lord Viddax more than touched upon at the start of his thoughts
well he more or less has it right, though a senryu is a similar form--not a haiku
i am interested, though, in the term 'brainwash'. what do you mean?
David_Macleod said:The debate is not specifically about haiku methinks, it encompasses all forms of poetry
1. Who decides what is a poem?
2. Who decides what is a good poem?
3. Who decides that rules have to be strictly adhered to?
4. Who decides that rules will not be broken?
5. Who decides what a haiku is?
6. Who decides what a sonnet is?
7. Who is in charge of Poetry?
8. Who decides who is master or student?
9. Who decides what poets are lazy and uneducated?
10. Who decides???????
Answer to all of these questions is every single member of DU. You can decide for yourself, you have that right, we all do as far as I'm concerned. All poets here are on a level playing field here I see no superiority exhibited apart from opinions. Like arseholes, we have all got one, as the saying goes. There is nothing wrong with writing a haiku about the tase of a bar of chocolate or the revving engine of a Harley and if the tip their hat to the modern 5 - 7 - 5 format then it is indeed a Haiku. It bends the rules, but rules were meant to be bending and breakable. We would not have modern poetry had it not been for the many beat poets of the sixties and revolutionary thinkers who have only added to the evolution of poetry. Otherwise, we would be stuck in the past going nowhere.
is poetry being policed here, is poetry being restricted from evolving, are opinions being censored now, do we never respond to direct provocation when invited to call something as elitist bullshit is that rhetorical? I remember recently taking down a post that was a bit ranty, I took it down and apologised to the person concerned. The response seemed tainted and was pretty much a parental telling off. I have regrets now
I should have left it up.
anyway I write Haiku lots of them and they are haiku because "I say so" as a pay homage to the form. You all have this right too regardless of education levels. Don't let anyone tell you differentno, this is all about the haiku as a poetry form. the ONLY reason any other form is named is because i'd like an answer to why it's fine to accept parameters of a form like a shakespearean sonnet, to not expect a serious sonnet publication to publish one that refuses to adhere to those same parameters, yet not give haiku the same respect. i've yet to hear any argument to address that.
bending the rules of an accepted form is acceptable - to a degree. ignoring them altogether but expecting others to consider your poem an 'x/y or z' just because you say it is one, is akin to a saying 'this is a cake' when you've cooked sausage and mash.
opinions are not facts
evolution of a form and adaptation are a thing and one i would have been happy to address with a civilised fellow member.
'level of education' here is used almost as an epithet; it doesn't apply; i had no formal training in poetry but took it upon myself to have an open mind and open eyes/ears/heart when it came to reading and learning--both from others and from my own investigations into the craft of writing. i'm absolutely all for anyone who loves the written word and has poetry burgeoning inside them to write. at all 'levels'. we all started at the beginning, we're all journeying--well, those of us willing to learn and move forward.
you call your stuff whatever you want. facts be damned.
it's unfortunate you allow paranoia to overshadow your commonsense.
1. Who decides what is a poem?
2. Who decides what is a good poem?
3. Who decides that rules have to be strictly adhered to?
4. Who decides that rules will not be broken?
5. Who decides what a haiku is?
6. Who decides what a sonnet is?
7. Who is in charge of Poetry?
8. Who decides who is master or student?
9. Who decides what poets are lazy and uneducated?
10. Who decides???????
Answer to all of these questions is every single member of DU. You can decide for yourself, you have that right, we all do as far as I'm concerned. All poets here are on a level playing field here I see no superiority exhibited apart from opinions. Like arseholes, we have all got one, as the saying goes. There is nothing wrong with writing a haiku about the tase of a bar of chocolate or the revving engine of a Harley and if the tip their hat to the modern 5 - 7 - 5 format then it is indeed a Haiku. It bends the rules, but rules were meant to be bending and breakable. We would not have modern poetry had it not been for the many beat poets of the sixties and revolutionary thinkers who have only added to the evolution of poetry. Otherwise, we would be stuck in the past going nowhere.
is poetry being policed here, is poetry being restricted from evolving, are opinions being censored now, do we never respond to direct provocation when invited to call something as elitist bullshit is that rhetorical? I remember recently taking down a post that was a bit ranty, I took it down and apologised to the person concerned. The response seemed tainted and was pretty much a parental telling off. I have regrets now
I should have left it up.
anyway I write Haiku lots of them and they are haiku because "I say so" as a pay homage to the form. You all have this right too regardless of education levels. Don't let anyone tell you differentno, this is all about the haiku as a poetry form. the ONLY reason any other form is named is because i'd like an answer to why it's fine to accept parameters of a form like a shakespearean sonnet, to not expect a serious sonnet publication to publish one that refuses to adhere to those same parameters, yet not give haiku the same respect. i've yet to hear any argument to address that.
bending the rules of an accepted form is acceptable - to a degree. ignoring them altogether but expecting others to consider your poem an 'x/y or z' just because you say it is one, is akin to a saying 'this is a cake' when you've cooked sausage and mash.
opinions are not facts
evolution of a form and adaptation are a thing and one i would have been happy to address with a civilised fellow member.
'level of education' here is used almost as an epithet; it doesn't apply; i had no formal training in poetry but took it upon myself to have an open mind and open eyes/ears/heart when it came to reading and learning--both from others and from my own investigations into the craft of writing. i'm absolutely all for anyone who loves the written word and has poetry burgeoning inside them to write. at all 'levels'. we all started at the beginning, we're all journeying--well, those of us willing to learn and move forward.
you call your stuff whatever you want. facts be damned.
it's unfortunate you allow paranoia to overshadow your commonsense.
