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the complexities and beauty of haiku

Ahavati
Ahavati
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Sigh. So the thread can't be about turtles because me thinks it is? Or should be?  ELITIST!


butters
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Ahavati said:Sigh. So the thread can't be about turtles because me thinks it is? Or should be?  ELITIST!

well, can it be a turtle in a haiku? don't be shell-fish

butters
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or a turtle in a half-shell? there's GOTTA be a ninja reference in there somewhere :D

Ahavati
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butters said:or a turtle in a half-shell? there's GOTTA be a ninja reference in there somewhere :D

Mutated, but yeah!

tortoise
inching across sand-
seagull

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David_Macleod said:

1. Who decides what is a poem? general consensus, for the most part, backed up by historical precedence
2. Who decides what is a good poem? mostly readers
3. Who decides that rules have to be strictly adhered to? individuals-- but what they might then write may then be rendered as not acceptable to certain publications or to be classified under a certain title. if the poem's good, that's more important than the classification. own your poem, just don't try to mislabel it to sell it as something it's not.
4. Who decides that rules will not be broken? the writer in the first instance as a choice; readers/critiquers/publishing venues depending on preference, readership, judges;
5. Who decides what a haiku is? currently, thousands of years of history, and an awful ot of poets who actually know what they're doing
6. Who decides what a sonnet is? well, let's see... there was this italian...Francesco Petrarch; a brit known as Shakespeare; Sir Edmund Spenser who modified the patrarch; and there are others... the first two are the basis of all other sonnets!]
7. Who is in charge of Poetry? we are all only in charge of our own poems--but a kitten is not a puppy no matter how much you try and teach it to bark
8. Who decides who is master or student? the masters and students, though even the wisest master knows they are still students and can learn from the humblest
9. Who decides what poets are lazy and uneducated? 'which' poets... and that'd be readers
10. Who decides??????? answered


anyway I write Haiku lots of them and they are haiku because "I say so"

so, despite that post's content being a complete attempt at distraction from the matter in hand, i've answered you. those damned italians, right? and as for shakespeare, what a bloody cheek inventing that form and calling it after himself. some people....

butters
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Ahavati said:

Mutated, but yeah!

tortoise
inching across sand-
seagull

*applause*

Ahavati
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butters said:
so, despite that post's content being a complete attempt at distraction from the matter in hand, i've answered you. those damned italians, right? and as for shakespeare, what a bloody cheek inventing that form and calling it after himself. some people....


They caused every bit of this!  Damn them. Damn them all to hell!


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Ahavati said:

They caused every bit of this!  Damn them. Damn them all to hell!


in this instance, i blame the japanese.

for anyone interested, this from Michael Dylan Welch; it briefly explains the origins of the form, the evolutions it's undergone, the input of the beat poets, and the confusion


Michael Dylan Welch, Read more about my background with haiku at www.graceguts.com/bio.
Answered Nov 12 2017
Haiku evolved in Japan over more than a thousand years. The earliest poetry in Japan, uta (which means song) was written with Chinese characters. As Japan began to assert its own written language, uta became waka (which means Japanese song, to differentiate it from the Chinese used before then). Waka used a pattern of 5–7–5–7–7 sounds (not to be confused with syllables) and was later called tanka. Another tradition was the renga, a collaborative form that alternated 5–7–5 and 7–7 verses, later called renku. The starting verse was called hokku, and poets beganpreserving these verses as independent poems (the rest of the renga was considered to be largely a social activity, seldom literature). Basho is considered to be Japan’s foremost haiku poet, but he actually wrote hokku and renga, as well as haibun (prose with what we now call haiku). Other great masters were Chiyo-ni, Buson, and Issa. Then came Shiki, who revolutionized this poetry about 120 years ago. He is also credited with coming up with the term “haiku” to recognize this poem’s independence from renga. In the 20th century, haiku splintered in many ways, with some avant-garde writers abandoning the season word (kigo), the 5–7–5 rhythm, and the cutting word (kireji), among other techniques, sometimes embracing surreal subjects. More traditional approaches have also continued. Haiku began reaching the West in the late 1800s, particularly influencing the Imagist movement in the early 1900s (Pound, Lowell, etc.) and later the Beat poetry movement of the 1950s (Kerouac, Ginsberg, etc.).Today, many haiku organizations thrive in various countries of the world, recognizing Japan’s poetic gift to the world. Unfortunately, in the West, haiku continues to be widely misunderstood as a 5–7–5 syllabic form. Not only is this an incorrect understanding of what is being counted in Japanese and how it converts to English, but it obscures far more important targets that are seldom taught in the West, resulting in poems that count 5–7–5 but have no other inclination of haiku’s literary techniques and necessities.

Ahavati
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butters said:
in this instance, i blame the japanese.


But seriously ( kinda ) -

butters said:
in this instance, i blame the japanese.

for anyone interested, this from Michael Dylan Welch; it briefly explains the origins of the form, the evolutions it's undergone, the input of the beat poets, and the confusion


Michael Dylan Welch, Read more about my background with haiku at www.graceguts.com/bio.
Answered Nov 12 2017
Haiku evolved in Japan over more than a thousand years. The earliest poetry in Japan, uta (which means song) was written with Chinese characters. As Japan began to assert its own written language, uta became waka (which means Japanese song, to differentiate it from the Chinese used before then). Waka used a pattern of 5–7–5–7–7 sounds (not to be confused with syllables) and was later called tanka. Another tradition was the renga, a collaborative form that alternated 5–7–5 and 7–7 verses, later called renku. The starting verse was called hokku, and poets beganpreserving these verses as independent poems (the rest of the renga was considered to be largely a social activity, seldom literature). Basho is considered to be Japan’s foremost haiku poet, but he actually wrote hokku and renga, as well as haibun (prose with what we now call haiku). Other great masters were Chiyo-ni, Buson, and Issa. Then came Shiki, who revolutionized this poetry about 120 years ago. He is also credited with coming up with the term “haiku” to recognize this poem’s independence from renga. In the 20th century, haiku splintered in many ways, with some avant-garde writers abandoning the season word (kigo), the 5–7–5 rhythm, and the cutting word (kireji), among other techniques, sometimes embracing surreal subjects. More traditional approaches have also continued. Haiku began reaching the West in the late 1800s, particularly influencing the Imagist movement in the early 1900s (Pound, Lowell, etc.) and later the Beat poetry movement of the 1950s (Kerouac, Ginsberg, etc.).

Today, many haiku organizations thrive in various countries of the world, recognizing Japan’s poetic gift to the world. Unfortunately, in the West, haiku continues to be widely misunderstood as a 5–7–5 syllabic form. Not only is this an incorrect understanding of what is being counted in Japanese and how it converts to English, but it obscures far more important targets that are seldom taught in the West, resulting in poems that count 5–7–5 but have no other inclination of haiku’s literary techniques and necessities.


Good stuff.  Particularly that last part.





Ahavati
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Privately conveyed.

Ahavati
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“Learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them like an artist.”

― Pablo Picasso

butters
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*looks at an apple*
"this is a banana, this is a banana, this is a banana, this is a banana ad infinitum"

*looks* the apple's still an apple, no matter how many times you call it something else
#FACTSMATTER

butters
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i'm hard-pressed to believe that there would be this noisy posturing and uproar if i'd have posted a 'how to' list of rules for writing ANY other established, respected poetry form, complete with a few pertinent terms relating to their makeup, and even with some terse opinions regarding my own reactions to those who toss out the rules but still insist on calling an apple a banana.

why haiku? is it because such a short form is seen as an easy way to write something (even a good poem!) and being 'allowed' to call it haiku lends it some esoteric credence above and beyond that it might warrant on its own merits?

to say i'm insulting everyone entering that "traditional japanese haiku" comp by stating facts is a childish deflection from the error of its title. i am not insulting the poems; each should be valued for its own merit. IF any conform to the style of a "traditional japanese haiku" then kudos to those; seems a shame they'll be up against others that don't comply with the true nature of traditional japanese haiku, only to the lax parameters used to run the competition.

to be clear, i have no issue with the poets. i have an issue with the title of the competition in regards to what it then states to be the parameters, but--on a far broader scale--the tsunami of widespread misinformation due to ignorance as to the really quite simple 'rules' about haiku and other japanese short-form poetry... parameters easily googled with a few clicks of a mouse.


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"Are you lot seriously saying that entrants into the cafe critique competition are incapable of writing good traditional haikus and the man running the competition is incapable?"

no. no matter how often you attempt to skew my words in regards to your competition, i have never stated they are "incapable of writing good, traditional haiku'' (haiku is plural for haiku, btw). i'm sure some, if not all of them are more than capable of doing just that; but to do that, they need to know what constitutes the form.

are you incapable? who knows? have i ever read a traditional japanese haiku by you? no. you may have some, but since you choose to state that whatever you believe makes a haiku a haiku—a "traditional japanese haiku", no less—then i have no interest in going on a turkey hunt. you do you. those bananas are still gonna taste funny to anyone who's eaten an apple.

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butters said:"Are you lot seriously saying that entrants into the cafe critique competition are incapable of writing good traditional haikus and the man running the competition is incapable?"

no. no matter how often you attempt to skew my words in regards to your competition, i have never stated they are "incapable of writing good, traditional haiku'' (haiku is plural for haiku, btw). i'm sure some, if not all of them are more than capable of doing just that; but to do that, they need to know what constitutes the form.

are you incapable? who knows? have i ever read a traditional japanese haiku by you? no. you may have some, but since you choose to state that whatever you believe makes a haiku a haiku—a "traditional japanese haiku", no less—then i have no interest in going on a turkey hunt. you do you. those bananas are still gonna taste funny to anyone who's eaten an apple.


This.

Spoken like someone who fucking knows how to debate.

Let me tell you something about Butters. She is opinionated. She doesn't hold back.  Same as Ahavati, she along with Todski has helped me improve as a writer by not sitting with her thumb up her ass while parked on her opinions.

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