the complexities and beauty of haiku
David_Macleod said:
I agree with you, I should know better but this rant was an injustice to many poets. Sometimes somebody has to stand up to this kind of perceived correctness. The invitation was explicitly there to call it elitist bullshit and I called it as I saw it. there were no personal insults just an opinion of fact as I see it - not personal I would have responded like that to any member ranting like that. It's insulting and offensive. There was a time when a thread like this would be closed down, anyway I bow to your request but I have to say that my opinion still stands
the lady had expressed a will to provoke/ promote discussion so go ahead state your case regarding the form. how you see it, how it is seen on a wider scale. give examples, quotes etc. you say she's wrong. prove it this is a topic debated much by people, I'm interested to hear your take
I agree with you, I should know better but this rant was an injustice to many poets. Sometimes somebody has to stand up to this kind of perceived correctness. The invitation was explicitly there to call it elitist bullshit and I called it as I saw it. there were no personal insults just an opinion of fact as I see it - not personal I would have responded like that to any member ranting like that. It's insulting and offensive. There was a time when a thread like this would be closed down, anyway I bow to your request but I have to say that my opinion still stands
the lady had expressed a will to provoke/ promote discussion so go ahead state your case regarding the form. how you see it, how it is seen on a wider scale. give examples, quotes etc. you say she's wrong. prove it
this is a topic debated much by people, I'm interested to hear your take 
Anonymous
butters said:
hello
my issue isn't because of his competition. i'm sure he thinks so, but then you seem to think my post was 'a rant'. it's not. i guess people interpret things the way they will; as far as i'm concerned, my post was quite restrained and addressed the factual points about haiku. i call that a push back against ignorance and disinformation. true, it's a pet peeve of mine and has been for a long time, so i'm quite used to the sort of push back i have received.
now, there's a reason i won't put a haiku in his competition: most of mine are senryu's/faux-ku's/simply shorts but it's supposed to be a competition for HAIKU. the few i have remaining that didn't get lost when a motherboard fritzed were written some time back and form part of a collection i've been asked to compile--so posting them publicly in a competition for haiku that doesn't conform to what actually constitutes a haiku would be counterproductive.
not 'my way', it is the way of the form as recognised by the publishers of sites, magazines and books with award-winning content. to suggest it's just me, oh, doing my thang, saying this is how I say it should be, is simply incorrect.
yep, i'm aware of that saying and many many others. i wouldn't term the poetry offered up in his competition as shit, though... bit rough, dontcha think?
thankyou for discussing the concept in a more mature fashion than your friend.
enjoy your evening, too.
You’re welcome. Yes, he is my friend. Well documented. My opinions however are entirely my own.
Thank you for explaining. I do however encourage you to participate in such competitions in future. The only way that we do learn is by example. I am also a director of the group hosting that competition along with many other members who give their time to help others grow. If you would like to discuss this or future competitions with me at any time, I welcome your comments.
And now, tea.
hello
my issue isn't because of his competition. i'm sure he thinks so, but then you seem to think my post was 'a rant'. it's not. i guess people interpret things the way they will; as far as i'm concerned, my post was quite restrained and addressed the factual points about haiku. i call that a push back against ignorance and disinformation. true, it's a pet peeve of mine and has been for a long time, so i'm quite used to the sort of push back i have received.
now, there's a reason i won't put a haiku in his competition: most of mine are senryu's/faux-ku's/simply shorts but it's supposed to be a competition for HAIKU. the few i have remaining that didn't get lost when a motherboard fritzed were written some time back and form part of a collection i've been asked to compile--so posting them publicly in a competition for haiku that doesn't conform to what actually constitutes a haiku would be counterproductive.
not 'my way', it is the way of the form as recognised by the publishers of sites, magazines and books with award-winning content. to suggest it's just me, oh, doing my thang, saying this is how I say it should be, is simply incorrect.
yep, i'm aware of that saying and many many others. i wouldn't term the poetry offered up in his competition as shit, though... bit rough, dontcha think?
thankyou for discussing the concept in a more mature fashion than your friend.
enjoy your evening, too.
You’re welcome. Yes, he is my friend. Well documented. My opinions however are entirely my own.
Thank you for explaining. I do however encourage you to participate in such competitions in future. The only way that we do learn is by example. I am also a director of the group hosting that competition along with many other members who give their time to help others grow. If you would like to discuss this or future competitions with me at any time, I welcome your comments.
And now, tea.
Anonymous said:<< post removed >>i'm sorry you choose to look at things from that point of view. can't say i'm surprised since i've been on the end of your slurs for some time now. not being a newb to the web it doesn't deter me.
are you suggesting there's not quality poetry here? my goodness! that's harsh. i've found LOADS of exceptional poems and poets. i read and comment on them daily. what i've not found is an abundance of haiku. wonderful, brief poems for the most part (not all but then what can i say, that probablly makes me an elitist, lol), just not many haiku.
why this obsession with refusing to call them what they are? the luddites were so last century.
are you suggesting there's not quality poetry here? my goodness! that's harsh. i've found LOADS of exceptional poems and poets. i read and comment on them daily. what i've not found is an abundance of haiku. wonderful, brief poems for the most part (not all but then what can i say, that probablly makes me an elitist, lol), just not many haiku.
why this obsession with refusing to call them what they are? the luddites were so last century.
Miss_Sub said:
You’re welcome. Yes, he is my friend. Well documented. My opinions however are entirely my own.
Thank you for explaining. I do however encourage you to participate in such competitions in future. The only way that we do learn is by example. I am also a director of the group hosting that competition along with many other members who give their time to help others grow. If you would like to discuss this or future competitions with me at any time, I welcome your comments.
And now, tea.
i wasn't suggesting your thoughts were anyone elses. i'm quite confident you're capable of expressing yourself well; i read your poetry
i am currently participating in several competitions here, and have in one or two others. it's fun!
thankyou for that invitation i didn't see any point in discussing this with you privately since the parameters of the comp were clearly laid out and do not match with the recognised understanding of haiku. i wouldn't attempt to disrupt the competition by posting that there, and since the parameters were so clear it was obviously the intention for them to remain set as such. so i thought a thread posted in the correct place to express both my views and the facts, plus with intention of promoting civil discussion of haiku, was the way to go.
enjoy your tea, i'll have a coffee
You’re welcome. Yes, he is my friend. Well documented. My opinions however are entirely my own.
Thank you for explaining. I do however encourage you to participate in such competitions in future. The only way that we do learn is by example. I am also a director of the group hosting that competition along with many other members who give their time to help others grow. If you would like to discuss this or future competitions with me at any time, I welcome your comments.
And now, tea.
i wasn't suggesting your thoughts were anyone elses. i'm quite confident you're capable of expressing yourself well; i read your poetry
i am currently participating in several competitions here, and have in one or two others. it's fun!
thankyou for that invitation
i didn't see any point in discussing this with you privately since the parameters of the comp were clearly laid out and do not match with the recognised understanding of haiku. i wouldn't attempt to disrupt the competition by posting that there, and since the parameters were so clear it was obviously the intention for them to remain set as such. so i thought a thread posted in the correct place to express both my views and the facts, plus with intention of promoting civil discussion of haiku, was the way to go. enjoy your tea, i'll have a coffee
coffee, tea, or me! 
butters, as promised yesterday morning ( per our discussion a week or so ago about Haiku ), I would respond to this as soon as the publishing tasks died down a bit. I agree with everything you've said, and anyone who has truly studied Haiku and understand its parameters will as well. In trying to come up with something unique to contribute ( aside from your statements ), I would add ( as I have on many poet's threads marked haiku ) that traditional haiku is often a three line poem that consists of a phrase and a fragment. Two of the lines comprise the phrase and the other line is the fragment. The fragment is either in the first or third lines.
I cannot tell you the sentences I have seen that are divided into three lines of 17 syllables labeled haikus.
Haiku are also written in 17 syllables or less - preferably less.
Haiku in English work the best around 10 to 12 syllables, otherwise they can become too wordy, clouding the image. These days a haiku captures one or two moments by using clear and vivid images . . . ( roses evoke spring, fallen leaves relate to autumn, etc). This does not mean that a haiku cannot go over 12 syllables, it simply says that less is best. Though many haiku are without punctuation, it's a good idea for beginners to put either an ellipsis ( . . . ), but more often a dash ( - ), where there is a break in the haiku, i.e. - after the fragment if its placement is the first line; or, after the second line of the phrase if the fragment is placed in the third line.
Over the course of studies, they may find themselves using no punctuation at all. Seasoned Masters and students can discern the fragment from the phrase of a haiku immediately without punctuation. Also, traditional haiku does not use capitalization or titles.
In essence, a haiku is an unfinished poem that readers interpret by putting the images together. It takes the art of "trapping" the reader's mind. Trapping may be the single most important aspect of haiku, and captures the reader's mind with the imagery of the words rather than the words themselves.
Anyway, I don't think I've repeated anything you've said. These were taken from my own notes of study regarding Haiku.
I appreciate your post and willingness to educate in regards to this ancient form.
By the way, just so you know, I am really a turtle. I don't care that elitists call me a human because of my anatomical makeup. I don't care what they say constitutes a human, or a turtle. I say I am a turtle and therefore I am a turtle because I say it's the way. :)
butters, as promised yesterday morning ( per our discussion a week or so ago about Haiku ), I would respond to this as soon as the publishing tasks died down a bit. I agree with everything you've said, and anyone who has truly studied Haiku and understand its parameters will as well. In trying to come up with something unique to contribute ( aside from your statements ), I would add ( as I have on many poet's threads marked haiku ) that traditional haiku is often a three line poem that consists of a phrase and a fragment. Two of the lines comprise the phrase and the other line is the fragment. The fragment is either in the first or third lines.
I cannot tell you the sentences I have seen that are divided into three lines of 17 syllables labeled haikus.
Haiku are also written in 17 syllables or less - preferably less.
Haiku in English work the best around 10 to 12 syllables, otherwise they can become too wordy, clouding the image. These days a haiku captures one or two moments by using clear and vivid images . . . ( roses evoke spring, fallen leaves relate to autumn, etc). This does not mean that a haiku cannot go over 12 syllables, it simply says that less is best. Though many haiku are without punctuation, it's a good idea for beginners to put either an ellipsis ( . . . ), but more often a dash ( - ), where there is a break in the haiku, i.e. - after the fragment if its placement is the first line; or, after the second line of the phrase if the fragment is placed in the third line.
Over the course of studies, they may find themselves using no punctuation at all. Seasoned Masters and students can discern the fragment from the phrase of a haiku immediately without punctuation. Also, traditional haiku does not use capitalization or titles.
In essence, a haiku is an unfinished poem that readers interpret by putting the images together. It takes the art of "trapping" the reader's mind. Trapping may be the single most important aspect of haiku, and captures the reader's mind with the imagery of the words rather than the words themselves.
Anyway, I don't think I've repeated anything you've said. These were taken from my own notes of study regarding Haiku.
I appreciate your post and willingness to educate in regards to this ancient form.
By the way, just so you know, I am really a turtle. I don't care that elitists call me a human because of my anatomical makeup. I don't care what they say constitutes a human, or a turtle. I say I am a turtle and therefore I am a turtle because I say it's the way. :)
Anonymous said:<< post removed >>
This is one of the main issues here at DU. Members ( the majority of, that is ) do not know the art of debate/discussion ( and it is an ART ). They are constantly attacking the character of the poster vs addressing the topic. It never once occurs to them that people can think on their own, and decide from actions without being persuaded about anything.
I mean you MUST have been brainwashed by half a story and believed it or you would not DARE be acting this way.
Seemingly feeling threatened by strong valid opinions is an understatement. . .
Lawd I feel like I'm in the middle of a political smear campaign.
This is one of the main issues here at DU. Members ( the majority of, that is ) do not know the art of debate/discussion ( and it is an ART ). They are constantly attacking the character of the poster vs addressing the topic. It never once occurs to them that people can think on their own, and decide from actions without being persuaded about anything.
I mean you MUST have been brainwashed by half a story and believed it or you would not DARE be acting this way.
Seemingly feeling threatened by strong valid opinions is an understatement. . . Lawd I feel like I'm in the middle of a political smear campaign.
Ahavati said:butters, as promised yesterday morning ( per our discussion a week or so ago about Haiku ), I would respond to this as soon as the publishing tasks died down a bit. I agree with everything you've said, and anyone who has truly studied Haiku and understand its parameters will as well. In trying to come up with something unique to contribute ( aside from your statements ), I would add ( as I have on many poet's threads marked haiku ) that traditional haiku is often a three line poem that consists of a phrase and a fragment. Two of the lines comprise the phrase and the other line is the fragment. The fragment is either in the first or third lines.
I cannot tell you the sentences I have seen that are divided into three lines of 17 syllables labeled haikus.
Haiku are also written in 17 syllables or less - preferably less.
Haiku in English work the best around 10 to 12 syllables, otherwise they can become too wordy, clouding the image. These days a haiku captures one or two moments by using clear and vivid images . . . ( roses evoke spring, fallen leaves relate to autumn, etc). This does not mean that a haiku cannot go over 12 syllables, it simply says that less is best. Though many haiku are without punctuation, it's a good idea for beginners to put either an ellipsis ( . . . ), but more often a dash ( - ), where there is a break in the haiku, i.e. - after the fragment if its placement is the first line; or, after the second line of the phrase if the fragment is placed in the third line.
Over the course of studies, they may find themselves using no punctuation at all. Seasoned Masters and students can discern the fragment from the phrase of a haiku immediately without punctuation. Also, traditional haiku does not use capitalization or titles.
In essence, a haiku is an unfinished poem that readers interpret by putting the images together. It takes the art of "trapping" the reader's mind. Trapping may be the single most important aspect of haiku, and captures the reader's mind with the imagery of the words rather than the words themselves.
Anyway, I don't think I've repeated anything you've said. These were taken from my own notes of study regarding Haiku.
I appreciate your post and willingness to educate in regards to this ancient form.
By the way, just so you know, I am really a turtle. I don't care that elitists call me a human because of my anatomical makeup. I don't care what they say constitutes a human, or a turtle. I say I am a turtle and therefore I am a turtle because I say it's the way. :)
well, dayumn... i, for one, am not afraid to call a turtle a turtle.
regarding your post: is one image really acceptable? i'm willing to be educated. my own understanding was that the tension between the two (on the surface) opposing images was key, with the cutting word creating the about-face and reconciling the two to make that 'aha!' moment. i also 'get' that western haiku has adapted to include more 'people' content, but would say my favourites are those that don't include a person in the imagery but, instead, allow the extrapolation of the poem's 'sense' to include the human experience.
thanks for adding to this discussion. i love finding out more about a form's complexities... it can only help me write better. maybe one day i'll have a bigger file of haiku than senryus/faux-kus
I cannot tell you the sentences I have seen that are divided into three lines of 17 syllables labeled haikus.
Haiku are also written in 17 syllables or less - preferably less.
Haiku in English work the best around 10 to 12 syllables, otherwise they can become too wordy, clouding the image. These days a haiku captures one or two moments by using clear and vivid images . . . ( roses evoke spring, fallen leaves relate to autumn, etc). This does not mean that a haiku cannot go over 12 syllables, it simply says that less is best. Though many haiku are without punctuation, it's a good idea for beginners to put either an ellipsis ( . . . ), but more often a dash ( - ), where there is a break in the haiku, i.e. - after the fragment if its placement is the first line; or, after the second line of the phrase if the fragment is placed in the third line.
Over the course of studies, they may find themselves using no punctuation at all. Seasoned Masters and students can discern the fragment from the phrase of a haiku immediately without punctuation. Also, traditional haiku does not use capitalization or titles.
In essence, a haiku is an unfinished poem that readers interpret by putting the images together. It takes the art of "trapping" the reader's mind. Trapping may be the single most important aspect of haiku, and captures the reader's mind with the imagery of the words rather than the words themselves.
Anyway, I don't think I've repeated anything you've said. These were taken from my own notes of study regarding Haiku.
I appreciate your post and willingness to educate in regards to this ancient form.
By the way, just so you know, I am really a turtle. I don't care that elitists call me a human because of my anatomical makeup. I don't care what they say constitutes a human, or a turtle. I say I am a turtle and therefore I am a turtle because I say it's the way. :)
well, dayumn... i, for one, am not afraid to call a turtle a turtle.
regarding your post: is one image really acceptable? i'm willing to be educated. my own understanding was that the tension between the two (on the surface) opposing images was key, with the cutting word creating the about-face and reconciling the two to make that 'aha!' moment. i also 'get' that western haiku has adapted to include more 'people' content, but would say my favourites are those that don't include a person in the imagery but, instead, allow the extrapolation of the poem's 'sense' to include the human experience.
thanks for adding to this discussion. i love finding out more about a form's complexities... it can only help me write better. maybe one day i'll have a bigger file of haiku than senryus/faux-kus
Anonymous
I always loved this card.
Anonymous said:<< post removed >>do you have something to add to this discussion about what makes haiku what it is?
do you disagree with the parameters as posted at the top of the thread?
do you think it's time to broaden the accepted parameters to include a more relaxed notion of what makes a haiku poem?
do you disagree with the parameters as posted at the top of the thread?
do you think it's time to broaden the accepted parameters to include a more relaxed notion of what makes a haiku poem?
Ahavati said:
This is one of the main issues here at DU. Members ( the majority of, that is ) do not know the art of debate/discussion ( and it is an ART ). They are constantly attacking the character of the poster vs addressing the topic. It never once occurs to them that people can think on their own, and decide from actions without being persuaded about anything.
I mean you MUST have been brainwashed by half a story and believed it or you would not DARE be acting this way. Seemingly feeling threatened by strong valid opinions is an understatement. . .
Lawd I feel like I'm in the middle of a political smear campaign.since i'd never met nor heard of you till 3 weeks ago, their interpretations are very odd.
having said that, in the spirit of the OP i'd like to see more discussion about the poem-form than those here only to disrupt.
turtle-head
This is one of the main issues here at DU. Members ( the majority of, that is ) do not know the art of debate/discussion ( and it is an ART ). They are constantly attacking the character of the poster vs addressing the topic. It never once occurs to them that people can think on their own, and decide from actions without being persuaded about anything.
I mean you MUST have been brainwashed by half a story and believed it or you would not DARE be acting this way.
Seemingly feeling threatened by strong valid opinions is an understatement. . . Lawd I feel like I'm in the middle of a political smear campaign.
since i'd never met nor heard of you till 3 weeks ago, their interpretations are very odd. having said that, in the spirit of the OP i'd like to see more discussion about the poem-form than those here only to disrupt.
turtle-head
