What Makes A Country 'Great'?
I was raised in a household that was pretty patriotic. My mother’s father was in the Air Force and my father’s father was in the Army. My parents tried to impress on me the idea that I was privileged to be an American. One way they would do this was to try to educate me on the rights and freedoms I had as an American. One example that comes to mind is a movie (I think based on a true story) where some 7th day Adventists were retried and retried for the same crime (I think in Australia). I think my mom told me that this doesn’t happen in America. Apparently there is a law against it. I believe there are several laws like pleading the 5th, the right to remain silent, right to an attorney, statute of limitations and on and on that make prosecutions generally pretty hard in America. When I was growing up there was a pro football player named OJ Simpson that probably got away with murder, simply because he had the enormous cash needed to hire a fancy team of lawyers. I guess Americas lax legal system for the ultra rich don’t exactly make it look good, but the alternative of prosecuting any behavior that looks suspicious is definitely not the way to go. Some have claimed lately that the there is a two tiered system of justice in America. I think there is another thread for that discussion. It’s probably something that provokes a lot of passions. Another thing to mention is the 2nd amendment. Some people think it makes America great. It’s a pretty polarizing issue with pretty hardened points of view. Personally, guns scare me (well not as much when I want to die, but that’s another issue) but I know of no more potent way for a citizenry to ward off tyranny than for all to have the freedom to be fully armed. Usually I would prefer that we could turn back the clock on our ability to handle disturbing weaponry but I just don’t think the genie can be put back in the bottle.
Our family is inundated with Veterans: Father ( Air Force ), grandfather ( Army ), great-grandfather ( Navy ), brother ( Coast Guard ), three cousins ( Air Force x 2 / Army x 1), three uncles ( all Air Force ). I was taught to respect the flag and what it stands for. But I also come from a Native American heritage and was taught to respect that as well.
As a former third-world missionary, I can attest to America's greatness in the area of public assistance. If everyone served just once in a third-world country where there is no social services, food stamps, medical help, hot water, CLEAN water, or toilets, they would realize how blessed America is. There is hope here. Hope in the form of some assistance. Whereas there is none in some of these countries.
That being said. Greed, misogyny, racism, and religion are trying to destroy what this country could be. That can ALL be placed under the religious right/white supremist umbrella labelled MAGA. Not all republicans are MAGA; however, I worry about the threats they receive should they vote their conscience instead of the party.
As a former third-world missionary, I can attest to America's greatness in the area of public assistance. If everyone served just once in a third-world country where there is no social services, food stamps, medical help, hot water, CLEAN water, or toilets, they would realize how blessed America is. There is hope here. Hope in the form of some assistance. Whereas there is none in some of these countries.
That being said. Greed, misogyny, racism, and religion are trying to destroy what this country could be. That can ALL be placed under the religious right/white supremist umbrella labelled MAGA. Not all republicans are MAGA; however, I worry about the threats they receive should they vote their conscience instead of the party.
Ahavati said:Our family is inundated with Veterans: Father ( Air Force ), grandfather ( Army ), great-grandfather ( Navy ), brother ( Coast Guard ), three cousins ( Air Force x 2 / Army x 1), three uncles ( all Air Force ). I was taught to respect the flag and what it stands for. But I also come from a Native American heritage and was taught to respect that as well.
As a former third-world missionary, I can attest to America's greatness in the area of public assistance. If everyone served just once in a third-world country where there is no social services, food stamps, medical help, hot water, CLEAN water, or toilets, they would realize how blessed America is. There is hope here. Hope in the form of some assistance. Whereas there is none in some of these countries.
That being said. Greed, misogyny, racism, and religion are trying to destroy what this country could be. That can ALL be placed under the religious right/white supremist umbrella labelled MAGA. Not all republicans are MAGA; however, I worry about the threats they receive should they vote their conscience instead of the party.
From what I’ve heard, it can pretty bad in 3rd world countries. But if you’re born there, being asked what the conditions are like is probably like asking a fish what water is like. I used to hate being in a group home. Now I don’t know if I want to leave it.
My brother adopted 2 girls from the Congo(which one I’m not sure). He considers himself a Christian. I don’t really ask him about his politics but he probably votes his wallet. He’s a financial advisor heavily invested in the market. I think his wife is an anti-vax Republican though. They have a fully autistic son. It runs in the family.
Now concerning your 4 great evils, there may be some problems. Probably the biggest is defining them. I don’t think anyone (except maybe the wolf on Wall Street) wants to be accused of greed. A big problem is how do you define it. Is it having too much money or wanting too much money? How much money is too much money?
Misogyny from what I understand is very politically incorrect. The problem is, how does a man detect misogyny within himself? How hard is it. Something tells me it’s probably not easy. If you tried to tell the average man how not to be a misogynist, he would probably hear you out, then say “Okay, fine”, then go get a lawn chair, drink two beers, and call it a day.
Now racism is definitely politically incorrect. I know what I am about to tell you is politically incorrect but I feel I need to say it. I really don’t know how anyone can not be a racist. The oedipus complex is from what I can tell racist but from what I understand it’s a verifiable psychological reality. There are general biological differences between the races, some more than others but not so much that interracial reproduction is impossible. I have been in African American churches and Caucasian dominated churches. There is a distinct difference in scent. As a Caucasian it can be hard for me to pick up racism in my own race. Sometimes it’s easy sometimes it’s not. As someone who has been under the care of African Americans, I can tell you that they are not at all immune to it. Some are more fair than others though.
Now religion I see as just a starting point on the journey to spirituality. Some people need more religion than others. Some like to stay in their religion longer than others. I think what you have a problem with is dogmatic bigoted evangelical Christians. There is hope for them if they are honest with themselves and it’s not just Christians that need to be honest with themselves. It is vital that everyone is.
From what I can tell MAGA is a movement, kind of like the Tea Party. I don’t really hear anyone talking about the Tea Party anymore. In a few years there will probably be some new conservative grassroots movement and MAGA will hardly be in anyone’s mind. I think what this is all about is money, land, and possessions. This is nothing new. People have been fighting over this stuff for ages. I doubt that this can all be settled if people just vote a certain way. People have to have a change in heart. I don’t really know what the answer is and I suspect I will die not knowing what the answer is. Maybe that’s just the way it’s supposed to be.
As a former third-world missionary, I can attest to America's greatness in the area of public assistance. If everyone served just once in a third-world country where there is no social services, food stamps, medical help, hot water, CLEAN water, or toilets, they would realize how blessed America is. There is hope here. Hope in the form of some assistance. Whereas there is none in some of these countries.
That being said. Greed, misogyny, racism, and religion are trying to destroy what this country could be. That can ALL be placed under the religious right/white supremist umbrella labelled MAGA. Not all republicans are MAGA; however, I worry about the threats they receive should they vote their conscience instead of the party.
From what I’ve heard, it can pretty bad in 3rd world countries. But if you’re born there, being asked what the conditions are like is probably like asking a fish what water is like. I used to hate being in a group home. Now I don’t know if I want to leave it.
My brother adopted 2 girls from the Congo(which one I’m not sure). He considers himself a Christian. I don’t really ask him about his politics but he probably votes his wallet. He’s a financial advisor heavily invested in the market. I think his wife is an anti-vax Republican though. They have a fully autistic son. It runs in the family.
Now concerning your 4 great evils, there may be some problems. Probably the biggest is defining them. I don’t think anyone (except maybe the wolf on Wall Street) wants to be accused of greed. A big problem is how do you define it. Is it having too much money or wanting too much money? How much money is too much money?
Misogyny from what I understand is very politically incorrect. The problem is, how does a man detect misogyny within himself? How hard is it. Something tells me it’s probably not easy. If you tried to tell the average man how not to be a misogynist, he would probably hear you out, then say “Okay, fine”, then go get a lawn chair, drink two beers, and call it a day.
Now racism is definitely politically incorrect. I know what I am about to tell you is politically incorrect but I feel I need to say it. I really don’t know how anyone can not be a racist. The oedipus complex is from what I can tell racist but from what I understand it’s a verifiable psychological reality. There are general biological differences between the races, some more than others but not so much that interracial reproduction is impossible. I have been in African American churches and Caucasian dominated churches. There is a distinct difference in scent. As a Caucasian it can be hard for me to pick up racism in my own race. Sometimes it’s easy sometimes it’s not. As someone who has been under the care of African Americans, I can tell you that they are not at all immune to it. Some are more fair than others though.
Now religion I see as just a starting point on the journey to spirituality. Some people need more religion than others. Some like to stay in their religion longer than others. I think what you have a problem with is dogmatic bigoted evangelical Christians. There is hope for them if they are honest with themselves and it’s not just Christians that need to be honest with themselves. It is vital that everyone is.
From what I can tell MAGA is a movement, kind of like the Tea Party. I don’t really hear anyone talking about the Tea Party anymore. In a few years there will probably be some new conservative grassroots movement and MAGA will hardly be in anyone’s mind. I think what this is all about is money, land, and possessions. This is nothing new. People have been fighting over this stuff for ages. I doubt that this can all be settled if people just vote a certain way. People have to have a change in heart. I don’t really know what the answer is and I suspect I will die not knowing what the answer is. Maybe that’s just the way it’s supposed to be.
Aquaheal said:
From what I’ve heard, it can pretty bad in 3rd world countries. But if you’re born there, being asked what the conditions are like is probably like asking a fish what water is like. I used to hate being in a group home. Now I don’t know if I want to leave it.
With the exception of children, you're terribly wrong there, I am afraid. These adults know exactly what it's like to suffer hunger and lack of basic necessities like clean water, much less hot water, and yearn for a better life, especially where their children are concerned. Sadly, I speak from experience.
Now concerning your 4 great evils, there may be some problems. Probably the biggest is defining them. I don’t think anyone (except maybe the wolf on Wall Street) wants to be accused of greed. A big problem is how do you define it. Is it having too much money or wanting too much money? How much money is too much money?
White supremacy is a perfect example. Greed doesn't just envelope money; it's power, control, and dominance as well.
Misogyny from what I understand is very politically incorrect. The problem is, how does a man detect misogyny within himself? How hard is it. Something tells me it’s probably not easy. If you tried to tell the average man how not to be a misogynist, he would probably hear you out, then say “Okay, fine”, then go get a lawn chair, drink two beers, and call it a day.
He "Grab[s] them by the pussy." Or he can just rape/demean them. As long as he got his OWN lawn chair and beers and didn't expect me to, it would be fine.
But seriously, misogyny also encompasses much broader issues as well, such as a superior attitude. For example, when a man washes the dishes periodically and proclaims he "helped", in essence what he's saying is that it's HER responsibility to clean the kitchen and she should be grateful he helped rather than viewing household responsibilities as equal. He may not detest her, he may actually love her; however, it's a superior attitude of "I helped and you should be grateful" when the responsibility should be shared to begin with.
Now racism is definitely politically incorrect. I know what I am about to tell you is politically incorrect but I feel I need to say it. I really don’t know how anyone can not be a racist. The oedipus complex is from what I can tell racist but from what I understand it’s a verifiable psychological reality. There are general biological differences between the races, some more than others but not so much that interracial reproduction is impossible. I have been in African American churches and Caucasian dominated churches. There is a distinct difference in scent. As a Caucasian it can be hard for me to pick up racism in my own race. Sometimes it’s easy sometimes it’s not. As someone who has been under the care of African Americans, I can tell you that they are not at all immune to it. Some are more fair than others though.
Racism is a double-edged sword. But in regard to Black people, I can totally empathize with their plight. They were "lorded over, murdered, raped, tortured, owned, sold, separated from their families and controlled" for centuries. Triggers run deep and through generations whether justified or not. Same with the Native Americans ( although they have amazing shamans that have facilitated healing ). The healing of wounds that deep requires highly spiritual individuals ( such as shamans and medicine wo/men ) who can facilitate the breaking of generational curses that end vicious cycles.
Now religion I see as just a starting point on the journey to spirituality. Some people need more religion than others. Some like to stay in their religion longer than others. I think what you have a problem with is dogmatic bigoted evangelical Christians. There is hope for them if they are honest with themselves and it’s not just Christians that need to be honest with themselves. It is vital that everyone is.
No, I have a problem with organized religion. It's killed millions in the name of a god throughout history. What I advocate for is spirituality, not fundamentalism. That can only be found within oneself. On that point you are correct.
From what I can tell MAGA is a movement, kind of like the Tea Party. I don’t really hear anyone talking about the Tea Party anymore. In a few years there will probably be some new conservative grassroots movement and MAGA will hardly be in anyone’s mind. I think what this is all about is money, land, and possessions. This is nothing new. People have been fighting over this stuff for ages. I doubt that this can all be settled if people just vote a certain way. People have to have a change in heart. I don’t really know what the answer is and I suspect I will die not knowing what the answer is. Maybe that’s just the way it’s supposed to be.
It's because we defeated the Tea Party. But MAGA is a bigger threat because they actually have a foothold in the state and are backing a man who has been found guilty of rape, committed fraud, insurrection, and is clearly misogynistic. It all goes beyond money, land, and possessions. Of course, that's nothing new. Ask any Native American about his heritage and they'll gladly tell you about the loss of land and possessions. No, it's much deeper than anything tangible. It's what I previously alluded to: Power. Authoritarianism under one religion: Christianity.
THAT is what this is all about, which brings us right back to the purpose of this thread: What makes a country great. Which is the absence of what you have labeled the "4 great evils".
From what I’ve heard, it can pretty bad in 3rd world countries. But if you’re born there, being asked what the conditions are like is probably like asking a fish what water is like. I used to hate being in a group home. Now I don’t know if I want to leave it.
With the exception of children, you're terribly wrong there, I am afraid. These adults know exactly what it's like to suffer hunger and lack of basic necessities like clean water, much less hot water, and yearn for a better life, especially where their children are concerned. Sadly, I speak from experience.
Now concerning your 4 great evils, there may be some problems. Probably the biggest is defining them. I don’t think anyone (except maybe the wolf on Wall Street) wants to be accused of greed. A big problem is how do you define it. Is it having too much money or wanting too much money? How much money is too much money?
White supremacy is a perfect example. Greed doesn't just envelope money; it's power, control, and dominance as well.
Misogyny from what I understand is very politically incorrect. The problem is, how does a man detect misogyny within himself? How hard is it. Something tells me it’s probably not easy. If you tried to tell the average man how not to be a misogynist, he would probably hear you out, then say “Okay, fine”, then go get a lawn chair, drink two beers, and call it a day.
He "Grab[s] them by the pussy." Or he can just rape/demean them. As long as he got his OWN lawn chair and beers and didn't expect me to, it would be fine.
But seriously, misogyny also encompasses much broader issues as well, such as a superior attitude. For example, when a man washes the dishes periodically and proclaims he "helped", in essence what he's saying is that it's HER responsibility to clean the kitchen and she should be grateful he helped rather than viewing household responsibilities as equal. He may not detest her, he may actually love her; however, it's a superior attitude of "I helped and you should be grateful" when the responsibility should be shared to begin with. Now racism is definitely politically incorrect. I know what I am about to tell you is politically incorrect but I feel I need to say it. I really don’t know how anyone can not be a racist. The oedipus complex is from what I can tell racist but from what I understand it’s a verifiable psychological reality. There are general biological differences between the races, some more than others but not so much that interracial reproduction is impossible. I have been in African American churches and Caucasian dominated churches. There is a distinct difference in scent. As a Caucasian it can be hard for me to pick up racism in my own race. Sometimes it’s easy sometimes it’s not. As someone who has been under the care of African Americans, I can tell you that they are not at all immune to it. Some are more fair than others though.
Racism is a double-edged sword. But in regard to Black people, I can totally empathize with their plight. They were "lorded over, murdered, raped, tortured, owned, sold, separated from their families and controlled" for centuries. Triggers run deep and through generations whether justified or not. Same with the Native Americans ( although they have amazing shamans that have facilitated healing ). The healing of wounds that deep requires highly spiritual individuals ( such as shamans and medicine wo/men ) who can facilitate the breaking of generational curses that end vicious cycles.
Now religion I see as just a starting point on the journey to spirituality. Some people need more religion than others. Some like to stay in their religion longer than others. I think what you have a problem with is dogmatic bigoted evangelical Christians. There is hope for them if they are honest with themselves and it’s not just Christians that need to be honest with themselves. It is vital that everyone is.
No, I have a problem with organized religion. It's killed millions in the name of a god throughout history. What I advocate for is spirituality, not fundamentalism. That can only be found within oneself. On that point you are correct.
From what I can tell MAGA is a movement, kind of like the Tea Party. I don’t really hear anyone talking about the Tea Party anymore. In a few years there will probably be some new conservative grassroots movement and MAGA will hardly be in anyone’s mind. I think what this is all about is money, land, and possessions. This is nothing new. People have been fighting over this stuff for ages. I doubt that this can all be settled if people just vote a certain way. People have to have a change in heart. I don’t really know what the answer is and I suspect I will die not knowing what the answer is. Maybe that’s just the way it’s supposed to be.
It's because we defeated the Tea Party. But MAGA is a bigger threat because they actually have a foothold in the state and are backing a man who has been found guilty of rape, committed fraud, insurrection, and is clearly misogynistic. It all goes beyond money, land, and possessions. Of course, that's nothing new. Ask any Native American about his heritage and they'll gladly tell you about the loss of land and possessions. No, it's much deeper than anything tangible. It's what I previously alluded to: Power. Authoritarianism under one religion: Christianity.
THAT is what this is all about, which brings us right back to the purpose of this thread: What makes a country great. Which is the absence of what you have labeled the "4 great evils".
“The oedipus complex is from what I can tell racist but from what I understand it’s a verifiable psychological reality.”
I think I need to explain this. I don’t know a lot about Freud. I think some of his theories make some sense but the guy seemed to come up with some pretty strange sexual stuff. What I meant by the oedipus complex is not exactly Freud’s idea of It. My Idea of the oedipus complex was the idea that men tend to be attracted to women who remind them of their mother. Quite often it is women who look like their mother particularly when she was younger. I have seen this time and time again from personal experience. I think someone told me that there was a study of a painted female duck who gave birth to male ducks who when older were more attracted to female ducks who were painted with the color of their mother. I have not seen the study. It just made sense when I heard it. In my mind anything that would suggest that there are any distinctions between races or that the human race can be divided up into races is, well, racist. The term African American is if not racist a term with racist undertones. I know this is going to sound really politically incorrect but “Black Lives Matter” is an incredibly racist statement.
I hope this clears up some of the confusion. I was a little tired last night when I wrote that post but I just felt driven to write it.
I think I need to explain this. I don’t know a lot about Freud. I think some of his theories make some sense but the guy seemed to come up with some pretty strange sexual stuff. What I meant by the oedipus complex is not exactly Freud’s idea of It. My Idea of the oedipus complex was the idea that men tend to be attracted to women who remind them of their mother. Quite often it is women who look like their mother particularly when she was younger. I have seen this time and time again from personal experience. I think someone told me that there was a study of a painted female duck who gave birth to male ducks who when older were more attracted to female ducks who were painted with the color of their mother. I have not seen the study. It just made sense when I heard it. In my mind anything that would suggest that there are any distinctions between races or that the human race can be divided up into races is, well, racist. The term African American is if not racist a term with racist undertones. I know this is going to sound really politically incorrect but “Black Lives Matter” is an incredibly racist statement.
I hope this clears up some of the confusion. I was a little tired last night when I wrote that post but I just felt driven to write it.
Ahavati, I think this is a good discussion. I think a really big road block in communication here is the way we define words and terms. We may be using the English language to describe two different lived experiences. I think If we can get on the same page as to what Greed, Misogyny, Racism and Religion are we could probably significantly reduce our tendency to go shooting in the dark. I’ll try to give you an idea of how I perceive those particular terms.
Greed for me is a little hard to define. For me greed is something that pops up in the soul that makes me in a sense hungry for more money or hungry to just have some money. Sometimes it’s the enjoyment of the idea of having lots of money. Power and control would probably be termed as Faustian or power hungry. I try to stay away from money. Power and control sound like something out of a Star Wars movie. Money itself seems to have a Faustian power to it. I have a very strong suspicion that the currencies of the world are driven by a very strong witchcraft. I’m kind of superstitious like that. Real power for me is power over myself. I often use the word “lust” to describe an attraction to dangerous or unhealthy things. This subject can get into deep things in the soul that may be hard to put a label on.
Misogyny is something I was not really raised to think about much. Some women seem to be Okay with it. Some are not. Before our conversation I didn’t really know how to spell it. I think most guys don’t really think about it much until they get home one day and they don’t know where their wife is. If women think it’s a big deal then I guess it’s a big deal. I don’t think guys are generally going to view it as a big deal unless the women in their lives make it a big deal. I think some people are moving towards traditional values and roles and some away. I think it’s really all up to the personal preference of the woman and the man.
Religion, race and politics are something I’ve been told several times are generally taboo. Some people talk about them but if there is a disagreement, things can get tricky. Religion for me is a little hard to define. Basically, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism or any thing like that is religion. Defining religion as just Christianity is a pretty foreign definition for me. Race, unless you’re referring to the human race, is to me a racist concept. Breaking apart the human race into “races” is to me a racist endeavor. I don’t really see it as right or wrong for now. We do it for other species like dogs and horses.
I think if we can come to an agreement on how concepts are termed, it would set a foundation for our ability to see each other’s perspectives. I think we have the same intent which is for the betterment of ourselves and the world but our experiences have made us learn things that produce a mismatch of priorities to that end. Something tells me that we are beginning to find our way through a house of mirrors.
Greed for me is a little hard to define. For me greed is something that pops up in the soul that makes me in a sense hungry for more money or hungry to just have some money. Sometimes it’s the enjoyment of the idea of having lots of money. Power and control would probably be termed as Faustian or power hungry. I try to stay away from money. Power and control sound like something out of a Star Wars movie. Money itself seems to have a Faustian power to it. I have a very strong suspicion that the currencies of the world are driven by a very strong witchcraft. I’m kind of superstitious like that. Real power for me is power over myself. I often use the word “lust” to describe an attraction to dangerous or unhealthy things. This subject can get into deep things in the soul that may be hard to put a label on.
Misogyny is something I was not really raised to think about much. Some women seem to be Okay with it. Some are not. Before our conversation I didn’t really know how to spell it. I think most guys don’t really think about it much until they get home one day and they don’t know where their wife is. If women think it’s a big deal then I guess it’s a big deal. I don’t think guys are generally going to view it as a big deal unless the women in their lives make it a big deal. I think some people are moving towards traditional values and roles and some away. I think it’s really all up to the personal preference of the woman and the man.
Religion, race and politics are something I’ve been told several times are generally taboo. Some people talk about them but if there is a disagreement, things can get tricky. Religion for me is a little hard to define. Basically, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism or any thing like that is religion. Defining religion as just Christianity is a pretty foreign definition for me. Race, unless you’re referring to the human race, is to me a racist concept. Breaking apart the human race into “races” is to me a racist endeavor. I don’t really see it as right or wrong for now. We do it for other species like dogs and horses.
I think if we can come to an agreement on how concepts are termed, it would set a foundation for our ability to see each other’s perspectives. I think we have the same intent which is for the betterment of ourselves and the world but our experiences have made us learn things that produce a mismatch of priorities to that end. Something tells me that we are beginning to find our way through a house of mirrors.
Josh said:
As far as I know, Britain (shortform of the Kingdom of Britain) had Great added to it when Scotland and Wales and the north part of Ireland became more unified in 1707, consolidated in 1800 as The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.
FYI - Great Britain refers to the mainland of the British Isles comprising England and Wales and Scotland. Scotland and England/Wales unified (in parliamentary terms - they had been under the same monarchy since 1603) in 1707. Ireland, traditionally titled "the Kingdom of Ireland" was one united island state with its own parliament under the British Crown down to 1801, then sent members to the British parliament from that year until 1922 when the mainly Catholic bulk of Ireland achieved its present independence, with its own parliament back in Dublin. The leaders of the mainly Protestant counties of Ireland's Ulster province chose to remain separate from Dublin rule and under the British crown alongside Great Britain, creating the present state of Northern Ireland.. Until 1922, "Northern Ireland" as a political entity did not exist.
As far as I know, Britain (shortform of the Kingdom of Britain) had Great added to it when Scotland and Wales and the north part of Ireland became more unified in 1707, consolidated in 1800 as The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.
FYI - Great Britain refers to the mainland of the British Isles comprising England and Wales and Scotland. Scotland and England/Wales unified (in parliamentary terms - they had been under the same monarchy since 1603) in 1707. Ireland, traditionally titled "the Kingdom of Ireland" was one united island state with its own parliament under the British Crown down to 1801, then sent members to the British parliament from that year until 1922 when the mainly Catholic bulk of Ireland achieved its present independence, with its own parliament back in Dublin. The leaders of the mainly Protestant counties of Ireland's Ulster province chose to remain separate from Dublin rule and under the British crown alongside Great Britain, creating the present state of Northern Ireland.. Until 1922, "Northern Ireland" as a political entity did not exist.
Solomon_Song said:Josh said:
As far as I know, Britain (shortform of the Kingdom of Britain) had Great added to it when Scotland and Wales and the north part of Ireland became more unified in 1707, consolidated in 1800 as The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.
FYI - Great Britain refers to the mainland of the British Isles comprising England and Wales and Scotland. Scotland and England/Wales unified (in parliamentary terms - they had been under the same monarchy since 1603) in 1707. Ireland, traditionally titled "the Kingdom of Ireland" was one united island state with its own parliament under the British Crown down to 1801, then sent members to the British parliament from that year until 1922 when the mainly Catholic bulk of Ireland achieved its present independence, with its own parliament back in Dublin. The leaders of the mainly Protestant counties of Ireland's Ulster province chose to remain separate from Dublin rule and under the British crown alongside Great Britain, creating the present state of Northern Ireland.. Until 1922, "Northern Ireland" as a political entity did not exist.
Thank you for the correction. For some reason we studied Russian and modern history at school, so anything pre-1900 is a bit incomplete in my head
As far as I know, Britain (shortform of the Kingdom of Britain) had Great added to it when Scotland and Wales and the north part of Ireland became more unified in 1707, consolidated in 1800 as The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.
FYI - Great Britain refers to the mainland of the British Isles comprising England and Wales and Scotland. Scotland and England/Wales unified (in parliamentary terms - they had been under the same monarchy since 1603) in 1707. Ireland, traditionally titled "the Kingdom of Ireland" was one united island state with its own parliament under the British Crown down to 1801, then sent members to the British parliament from that year until 1922 when the mainly Catholic bulk of Ireland achieved its present independence, with its own parliament back in Dublin. The leaders of the mainly Protestant counties of Ireland's Ulster province chose to remain separate from Dublin rule and under the British crown alongside Great Britain, creating the present state of Northern Ireland.. Until 1922, "Northern Ireland" as a political entity did not exist.
Thank you for the correction. For some reason we studied Russian and modern history at school, so anything pre-1900 is a bit incomplete in my head
Aquaheal said:Ahavati, I think this is a good discussion. I think a really big road block in communication here is the way we define words and terms. We may be using the English language to describe two different lived experiences. I think If we can get on the same page as to what Greed, Misogyny, Racism and Religion are we could probably significantly reduce our tendency to go shooting in the dark. I’ll try to give you an idea of how I perceive those particular terms.
I can certainly appreciate your desire to communicate in a more concise manner; however, it's perfectly okay if we have differing definitions or opinions.
Greed for me is a little hard to define. For me greed is something that pops up in the soul that makes me in a sense hungry for more money or hungry to just have some money. Sometimes it’s the enjoyment of the idea of having lots of money. Power and control would probably be termed as Faustian or power hungry. I try to stay away from money. Power and control sound like something out of a Star Wars movie. Money itself seems to have a Faustian power to it. I have a very strong suspicion that the currencies of the world are driven by a very strong witchcraft. I’m kind of superstitious like that. Real power for me is power over myself. I often use the word “lust” to describe an attraction to dangerous or unhealthy things. This subject can get into deep things in the soul that may be hard to put a label on.
You seem to be focused on tangibles in regard to your definition of greed. As previously stated, for me it extends beyond the tangible to power, control, and dominance [ over others ]. That doesn't mean it excludes monetary issues or any other tangible item: land, material possessions, etc. It simply means that I define greed beyond the tangible.
The dictionary agrees with me and defines greed as: intense and selfish desire for something, especially wealth, power, or food:
Misogyny is something I was not really raised to think about much. Some women seem to be Okay with it. Some are not. Before our conversation I didn’t really know how to spell it. I think most guys don’t really think about it much until they get home one day and they don’t know where their wife is. If women think it’s a big deal then I guess it’s a big deal. I don’t think guys are generally going to view it as a big deal unless the women in their lives make it a big deal. I think some people are moving towards traditional values and roles and some away. I think it’s really all up to the personal preference of the woman and the man.
Whether a man or woman doesn't think about misogyny is irrelevant to the definition and/or existence of it. What I don't think about doesn't define its existence because I don't think about it. I am not fond of avocados. I never think about them; however, that doesn't change the fact that avocados exist. Innately I know there are others out there who enjoy them and that doesn't disturb me.
For the most part and with exceptions, our culture has raised men to be dependent on their partners for housework and feel that whenever they "vacuum, mop, do the dishes, the laundry, clean the toilet, etc." it is "helping" their partner. But that is not a partnership. Putting gas in a car was historically a man's job. However, I pump my own gas. When I was married, I never thought I was "helping" my husband by filling my car up with gas or running it through the car wash. If the trash was full, I took it out. I never thought I was "helping" him with "his" chore. In my eyes we were partners. I cooked. He cleaned up the kitchen. I washed and folded clothes, he put them up. It was a partnership.
A definition of misogyny is an ingrained prejudice against women. Look how hard we had to fight for the vote, or to work, to check the mail. or serve in the military, in congress, or the presidency, etc. How much abuse and prejudiced has been against us because we squat to pee? It's our culture. We are products of our environment and it's up to each woman and man to teach their sons and grandsons that it's NOT just a woman's job to cook, clean, or take care of them. Wives are not their husband's mothers ( back to Freud ).
For those men and women comfortable in the traditional role, there's nothing wrong with that if that's what they truly want. Communication is vital or, as you said, a man comes home and finds his wife gone because she's had it. Or maybe she did try to communicate, and like you also said,
If you tried to tell the average man how not to be a misogynist, he would probably hear you out, then say “Okay, fine”, then go get a lawn chair, drink two beers, and call it a day.
Maybe she didn't know how to communicate. Maybe he didn't know how to listen. What remains is a man alone in a house without hiswife mother.
Religion, race and politics are something I’ve been told several times are generally taboo. Some people talk about them but if there is a disagreement, things can get tricky. Religion for me is a little hard to define. Basically, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism or any thing like that is religion. Defining religion as just Christianity is a pretty foreign definition for me. Race, unless you’re referring to the human race, is to me a racist concept. Breaking apart the human race into “races” is to me a racist endeavor. I don’t really see it as right or wrong for now. We do it for other species like dogs and horses.
I wasn't defining religion as solely Christianity outside of the confines of MAGA's intentions to flip the U.S. from a secular country into a Christian one. Something they've made very clear and is a violation of our Constitution.
I have read all the major holy books of all the major religions and smaller ones. There is truth in all, and there is pure ego embedded in translation in all. Only the spirit can discern the difference. And only one who is in sync with their spirit will know the difference between the divine and the human aspect of the scriptures. And you will know them by their fruits.
As far as race, I disagree it's racist. Native Americans are proud to be Native. Blacks are PROUD to be Black. Same with Latinos and Asians. They are proud of their heritage. We are different and it makes us beautiful. Each culture has their own unique observances such as Dia de Los Muertos, etc. Inside we are all human. We are the human race; Spiritually we are ONE.
UNTIL someone can't stand the 'outer' difference. . .then violence defines racism.
I think if we can come to an agreement on how concepts are termed, it would set a foundation for our ability to see each other’s perspectives. I think we have the same intent which is for the betterment of ourselves and the world but our experiences have made us learn things that produce a mismatch of priorities to that end. Something tells me that we are beginning to find our way through a house of mirrors.
You do realize that it's okay to disagree, right? Your opinion or how you define things according to your experience is perfectly acceptable and reflects where you are in your spiritual growth. Same for me. It's okay not to be on the same page, much less chapter and verse.
I can certainly appreciate your desire to communicate in a more concise manner; however, it's perfectly okay if we have differing definitions or opinions.
Greed for me is a little hard to define. For me greed is something that pops up in the soul that makes me in a sense hungry for more money or hungry to just have some money. Sometimes it’s the enjoyment of the idea of having lots of money. Power and control would probably be termed as Faustian or power hungry. I try to stay away from money. Power and control sound like something out of a Star Wars movie. Money itself seems to have a Faustian power to it. I have a very strong suspicion that the currencies of the world are driven by a very strong witchcraft. I’m kind of superstitious like that. Real power for me is power over myself. I often use the word “lust” to describe an attraction to dangerous or unhealthy things. This subject can get into deep things in the soul that may be hard to put a label on.
You seem to be focused on tangibles in regard to your definition of greed. As previously stated, for me it extends beyond the tangible to power, control, and dominance [ over others ]. That doesn't mean it excludes monetary issues or any other tangible item: land, material possessions, etc. It simply means that I define greed beyond the tangible.
The dictionary agrees with me and defines greed as: intense and selfish desire for something, especially wealth, power, or food:
Misogyny is something I was not really raised to think about much. Some women seem to be Okay with it. Some are not. Before our conversation I didn’t really know how to spell it. I think most guys don’t really think about it much until they get home one day and they don’t know where their wife is. If women think it’s a big deal then I guess it’s a big deal. I don’t think guys are generally going to view it as a big deal unless the women in their lives make it a big deal. I think some people are moving towards traditional values and roles and some away. I think it’s really all up to the personal preference of the woman and the man.
Whether a man or woman doesn't think about misogyny is irrelevant to the definition and/or existence of it. What I don't think about doesn't define its existence because I don't think about it. I am not fond of avocados. I never think about them; however, that doesn't change the fact that avocados exist. Innately I know there are others out there who enjoy them and that doesn't disturb me.
For the most part and with exceptions, our culture has raised men to be dependent on their partners for housework and feel that whenever they "vacuum, mop, do the dishes, the laundry, clean the toilet, etc." it is "helping" their partner. But that is not a partnership. Putting gas in a car was historically a man's job. However, I pump my own gas. When I was married, I never thought I was "helping" my husband by filling my car up with gas or running it through the car wash. If the trash was full, I took it out. I never thought I was "helping" him with "his" chore. In my eyes we were partners. I cooked. He cleaned up the kitchen. I washed and folded clothes, he put them up. It was a partnership.
A definition of misogyny is an ingrained prejudice against women. Look how hard we had to fight for the vote, or to work, to check the mail. or serve in the military, in congress, or the presidency, etc. How much abuse and prejudiced has been against us because we squat to pee? It's our culture. We are products of our environment and it's up to each woman and man to teach their sons and grandsons that it's NOT just a woman's job to cook, clean, or take care of them. Wives are not their husband's mothers ( back to Freud ).
For those men and women comfortable in the traditional role, there's nothing wrong with that if that's what they truly want. Communication is vital or, as you said, a man comes home and finds his wife gone because she's had it. Or maybe she did try to communicate, and like you also said,
If you tried to tell the average man how not to be a misogynist, he would probably hear you out, then say “Okay, fine”, then go get a lawn chair, drink two beers, and call it a day.
Maybe she didn't know how to communicate. Maybe he didn't know how to listen. What remains is a man alone in a house without his
Religion, race and politics are something I’ve been told several times are generally taboo. Some people talk about them but if there is a disagreement, things can get tricky. Religion for me is a little hard to define. Basically, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism or any thing like that is religion. Defining religion as just Christianity is a pretty foreign definition for me. Race, unless you’re referring to the human race, is to me a racist concept. Breaking apart the human race into “races” is to me a racist endeavor. I don’t really see it as right or wrong for now. We do it for other species like dogs and horses.
I wasn't defining religion as solely Christianity outside of the confines of MAGA's intentions to flip the U.S. from a secular country into a Christian one. Something they've made very clear and is a violation of our Constitution.
I have read all the major holy books of all the major religions and smaller ones. There is truth in all, and there is pure ego embedded in translation in all. Only the spirit can discern the difference. And only one who is in sync with their spirit will know the difference between the divine and the human aspect of the scriptures. And you will know them by their fruits.
As far as race, I disagree it's racist. Native Americans are proud to be Native. Blacks are PROUD to be Black. Same with Latinos and Asians. They are proud of their heritage. We are different and it makes us beautiful. Each culture has their own unique observances such as Dia de Los Muertos, etc. Inside we are all human. We are the human race; Spiritually we are ONE.
UNTIL someone can't stand the 'outer' difference. . .then violence defines racism.
I think if we can come to an agreement on how concepts are termed, it would set a foundation for our ability to see each other’s perspectives. I think we have the same intent which is for the betterment of ourselves and the world but our experiences have made us learn things that produce a mismatch of priorities to that end. Something tells me that we are beginning to find our way through a house of mirrors.
You do realize that it's okay to disagree, right? Your opinion or how you define things according to your experience is perfectly acceptable and reflects where you are in your spiritual growth. Same for me. It's okay not to be on the same page, much less chapter and verse.
Ahavati, I have been reading and rereading your posts to try to understand where you are coming from. I think what you’re saying is that if we can ditch the hubris and the cold-heartedness we would be great. I see no way of how I could reasonably disagree with that. The big question is how do you get to that point. The answer is, there does not seem to be any easy answers. The only way I can see it happening is if there is a massive change in people’s hearts or a dramatic change in the spiritual landscape. Do you know of any spiritual power that has that kind of influence over the spirit world? Probably the best we can do is just try to change ourselves for the better. Voting for change appears to be like running on a treadmill to go somewhere. It doesn’t matter which way you vote. You can’t out vote the lobbyists and the special interests that have the campaign cash that you don’t have. If you want to change politics, you have to change the things that change politics. You have to be the hands that pull the strings behind the scenes. Voting simply changes the puppets. That is if we have secure elections. Which we don’t. Any honest hacker worth his weight in salt will tell you this. If you buy a voting machine off the internet he can show you the flaws. There were videos of it on YouTube. If you can’t find any, try Rumble. Before 2020, democrats were were warning about it for years. You may find it hard to find those warnings now. From what I can tell, when Trump saw his opponents play dirty, he decided to play dirty too and won. When his opponents realized that they couldn’t beat him playing the same old game, they decided to play even dirtier. It’s possible that Trump may have baited them. Sometimes I play with conspiracy theories. Reality is something that I feel I always have to keep reunderstanding. If I don’t keep learning I’m headed towards being being behind the curve. Today I read some on John D Rockefeller. His father was a con artist. I think Rockefeller’s influence is still felt today by our dependence on petroleum and petroleum based products. Rockefeller had a Darwinian view on Business. Survival of the fittest is a mindset that gets hammered into a man from an early age. Men who don’t have this mindset can’t really compete in the business world. Such a man might be able to get a job in a non profit if he has what it takes to hold down a job. It’s hard to get the competitive spirit out of a man. A lot of women want a non competitive man but it can pretty hard to find one that isn’t broke and unemployed.
This just came to me. Maybe “Make America Great Again” is meant to be something like “Make America Powerful Again”. I think John McCain used to like the phrase “Peace Through Strength”. Conservatives don’t like it when when America has to rely on any country for anything. I think they want an independent nation that can’t be told by other countries what to do. They don’t want China or other nations holding debt over their heads. They want a balanced budget that gets America’s fiscal house in order. They want to give secure and legal immigration to immigrants who intend to follow the law and learn America’s language and respect its culture. They don’t want violent criminals, dangerous drugs and terror suspects pouring through the border. They don’t want dead people voting. They want one legal person casting one legal vote. They want strict election security and transparency. They want to go back to the way we used to do mail in ballots, only when necessary. They don’t want any more people getting ballots for people who don’t live at that residence. They want the voting machines to be secure and properly functioning. Some want to ditch the machines and go back to paper ballots.
I think some of this may have been in America’s past. Fiscally, America has pretty much always had problems. I believe a major factor in drafting the constitution was the fiscal flaws in the Articles of Confederation.
I know I rambled a lot. Hopefully I didn’t say anything incorrect.
This just came to me. Maybe “Make America Great Again” is meant to be something like “Make America Powerful Again”. I think John McCain used to like the phrase “Peace Through Strength”. Conservatives don’t like it when when America has to rely on any country for anything. I think they want an independent nation that can’t be told by other countries what to do. They don’t want China or other nations holding debt over their heads. They want a balanced budget that gets America’s fiscal house in order. They want to give secure and legal immigration to immigrants who intend to follow the law and learn America’s language and respect its culture. They don’t want violent criminals, dangerous drugs and terror suspects pouring through the border. They don’t want dead people voting. They want one legal person casting one legal vote. They want strict election security and transparency. They want to go back to the way we used to do mail in ballots, only when necessary. They don’t want any more people getting ballots for people who don’t live at that residence. They want the voting machines to be secure and properly functioning. Some want to ditch the machines and go back to paper ballots.
I think some of this may have been in America’s past. Fiscally, America has pretty much always had problems. I believe a major factor in drafting the constitution was the fiscal flaws in the Articles of Confederation.
I know I rambled a lot. Hopefully I didn’t say anything incorrect.
Aquaheal said:Ahavati, I have been reading and rereading your posts to try to understand where you are coming from.
If that's the case I think we need to just agree to move on? I'm a pretty straightforward person and my statements reflected that. For you to infer you had to read them multiple times and still didn't comprehend their meaning tells me I may be wasting my time. I addressed each one of your points in a concise manner.
In all honesty, there's something "off" about the energy here, and I don't want to speculate on what it is, but I will go as far as to say I believe you are a conservative incognito attempting to talk reason into me. I am not saying that's truth. I just know that my instinct is telling me things aren't what they appear to be. So, I don't want to spend too much more time on this exchange.
I like the way you clarified conservative points and what they mean by "Make America Great Again". But here's the thing - no one wants those things. Not liberals. Not independents.
There's one thing you left out, however, that's curious: Christianity, which is at the root of the MAGA movement. Again, their desire to flip a secular state into a religious one, namely Christianity, under an authoritarian such as Trump, who has been found guilty of rape, committed fraud and insurrection, and so much more, is mindboggling to me.
Could you imagine 20 years ago ( maybe not that long ) a presidential candidate found guilty of rape, fraud, and insurrection winning the presidency?
MAGA is Trump whether you realize that or not. But I believe you do. His followers have the same mindset and want control for [ the Christian ] GOD and country.
How do we change? We assume responsibility for our actions. We research ourselves. We don't blindly follow anyone. We vote the best we can - which is better than not voting at all regardless of whether or not the lobbyists outvote us. That is patriotism at its finest.
As far as your views on men, I completely disagree. I know too many kick-ass businessmen at the top of their fields, and they don't have the "survival of the fittest" mentality nor do they view themselves superior to females. I will say this, the patriarchy is imbalanced in its power. When the divine feminine rises and balances this mess, the paradigm will shift for the better.
Hope I didn't confuse you too much with this response.
If that's the case I think we need to just agree to move on? I'm a pretty straightforward person and my statements reflected that. For you to infer you had to read them multiple times and still didn't comprehend their meaning tells me I may be wasting my time. I addressed each one of your points in a concise manner.
In all honesty, there's something "off" about the energy here, and I don't want to speculate on what it is, but I will go as far as to say I believe you are a conservative incognito attempting to talk reason into me. I am not saying that's truth. I just know that my instinct is telling me things aren't what they appear to be. So, I don't want to spend too much more time on this exchange.
I like the way you clarified conservative points and what they mean by "Make America Great Again". But here's the thing - no one wants those things. Not liberals. Not independents.
There's one thing you left out, however, that's curious: Christianity, which is at the root of the MAGA movement. Again, their desire to flip a secular state into a religious one, namely Christianity, under an authoritarian such as Trump, who has been found guilty of rape, committed fraud and insurrection, and so much more, is mindboggling to me.
Could you imagine 20 years ago ( maybe not that long ) a presidential candidate found guilty of rape, fraud, and insurrection winning the presidency?
MAGA is Trump whether you realize that or not. But I believe you do. His followers have the same mindset and want control for [ the Christian ] GOD and country.
How do we change? We assume responsibility for our actions. We research ourselves. We don't blindly follow anyone. We vote the best we can - which is better than not voting at all regardless of whether or not the lobbyists outvote us. That is patriotism at its finest.
As far as your views on men, I completely disagree. I know too many kick-ass businessmen at the top of their fields, and they don't have the "survival of the fittest" mentality nor do they view themselves superior to females. I will say this, the patriarchy is imbalanced in its power. When the divine feminine rises and balances this mess, the paradigm will shift for the better.
Hope I didn't confuse you too much with this response.
Ahavati, your definition of greed intrigues me. The idea of power, control and dominance over others reminds me of something out of Star Wars where the Force was used to manipulate the weak minded. Something tells me that is not what you are talking about. Perhaps you are referring to legal power. Maybe you are referring to blackmail or death threats or threats of violence. The drug lord Pablo Escobar had a very effective method called silver or lead which means you get paid or you die. There may be other forms of manipulation that fit your definition of greed.
I am assuming that you believe MAGA is greedy. Maybe what you are referring to is the idea that people from the extreme religious right are looking to get control of the government and pass laws that somehow benefit Christianity. Do you have any idea what those laws would be or what a Christian America would look like?
I am assuming that you believe MAGA is greedy. Maybe what you are referring to is the idea that people from the extreme religious right are looking to get control of the government and pass laws that somehow benefit Christianity. Do you have any idea what those laws would be or what a Christian America would look like?
Ahavati, your instincts are pretty good. I go by instinct a lot too. I think we could learn a lot from each other. I’m definitely conservative but I try to keep an open mind about Trump. It appears I have been deceptive. I appreciate you calling me out on it. I try not to lie or be deceptive but I can be misleading. I learned that if you want to get along in society you have to hide the truth a little bit. I left you some clues but I probably need to tell you that I am on the spectrum. You may find that I do some things that appear strange. I guess you should know that for quite a while I was a Bible thumping evangelical Christian, or at least I thought I was. Some “Christians” think I’m a Christian, some don’t. I don’t know if you know this or not but not all “Christians” agree on how to get to heaven or how to become a Christian. There are a lot of misconceptions out there about Christianity. When I was really into the Bible I realized that you could make it say just about anything you wanted it to if you knew it well enough. Being raised Christian, the Protestant mindset is like a native mindset. The divine feminine is a foreign concept. What salvation it has for humanity I can’t tell at the moment. I would have to understand it before I could legitimately accept it or reject it. I get that you have a strange feeling about me, I kind of have a strange feeling about you too. I have a feeling though that if we talk we will take down each other’s misconceptions and see a clearer picture of reality. I know to learn I have to realize that there is more to learn. I think you know that too.
An interesting conversation, thank you.
Change needs to be tackled on two levels.
1). One is on the physical plane, for which I propose Percy Redfern indicates a good option:
“In our common everyday needs the great industries of the world take their rise. We – the mass of common men and women in all countries - also compose the world’s markets. To sell to us is the ultimate aim of the world’s business. Hence it is ourselves as consumers who stand in a central relation to all the economies of the world, like the king in his kingdom. As producers we go unto a particular factory, farm or mine, but as consumers we are set by nature thus to give leadership, aim and purpose to the whole economic world. That we are not kings, but serfs in the mass, is due to our failure to think and act together as consumers and so to realise our true position and power.”
Percy Redfern’s quote on the power of the consumer, (Issue:1, The Ethical Consumer Magazine, 1989) — {original may have been quoted from Redfern’s book “The Consumer’s Place in Society”, 1920]. (my emphasis in the quote)
2). The non-physical plane - that of consciousness, individual and collective. From observation in my own life, and in my understanding of history, things only change when there is an "epiphany moment" (rather than rational argument). And epiphany moments tend to happen when something in life is experienced as "bad enough" - and we say "never again". In a flash we reframe the situation and subsequent change often comes relatively easily.
(unfortunately this "point of enoughness" has not yet been reached in Gaza, Ukraine, etc).
{ as an aside, I was also a keeny-beany evangelical christian from the age of 18-30, until I saw the light }
Change needs to be tackled on two levels.
1). One is on the physical plane, for which I propose Percy Redfern indicates a good option:
“In our common everyday needs the great industries of the world take their rise. We – the mass of common men and women in all countries - also compose the world’s markets. To sell to us is the ultimate aim of the world’s business. Hence it is ourselves as consumers who stand in a central relation to all the economies of the world, like the king in his kingdom. As producers we go unto a particular factory, farm or mine, but as consumers we are set by nature thus to give leadership, aim and purpose to the whole economic world. That we are not kings, but serfs in the mass, is due to our failure to think and act together as consumers and so to realise our true position and power.”
Percy Redfern’s quote on the power of the consumer, (Issue:1, The Ethical Consumer Magazine, 1989) — {original may have been quoted from Redfern’s book “The Consumer’s Place in Society”, 1920]. (my emphasis in the quote)
2). The non-physical plane - that of consciousness, individual and collective. From observation in my own life, and in my understanding of history, things only change when there is an "epiphany moment" (rather than rational argument). And epiphany moments tend to happen when something in life is experienced as "bad enough" - and we say "never again". In a flash we reframe the situation and subsequent change often comes relatively easily.
(unfortunately this "point of enoughness" has not yet been reached in Gaza, Ukraine, etc).
{ as an aside, I was also a keeny-beany evangelical christian from the age of 18-30, until I saw the light
}
