deepundergroundpoetry.com
THE MOUNTAIN AND THE VALE
THE MOUNTAIN AND THE VALE
Between the mountain lofty top and that low vale,
I wander beside them to have a look at both.
The mountain lacks the fruits the vale can always have
while both attract my eyes to see the greater worth.
Both have been there since Adam's time but he has gone
and lots like him have traced his way while both exist.
I look with eager eyes at that most glorious peak,
but fear of that hard climb can stop my feet.
It's hard to climb but when l reach the soaring point,
I find the vale so nice but not for dreaming hearts.
The daunted hearts prefer the vale and its sweet fruits
as craggy peaks demand stout heartedness and might.
BY JOSEPH ZENIEH
ALL RIGHTS RESERVED
____________________________________
Between the mountain lofty top and that low vale,
I wander beside them to have a look at both.
The mountain lacks the fruits the vale can always have
while both attract my eyes to see the greater worth.
Both have been there since Adam's time but he has gone
and lots like him have traced his way while both exist.
I look with eager eyes at that most glorious peak,
but fear of that hard climb can stop my feet.
It's hard to climb but when l reach the soaring point,
I find the vale so nice but not for dreaming hearts.
The daunted hearts prefer the vale and its sweet fruits
as craggy peaks demand stout heartedness and might.
BY JOSEPH ZENIEH
ALL RIGHTS RESERVED
____________________________________
Published 17th Oct 2022
All writing remains the property of the author. Don't use it for any purpose without their permission.
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The author encourages honest critique.
18th Oct 2022 1:32pm
"Between the mountain [sic]lofty top"
and that low vale, [sic]
I wander beside them to have a look at both."
Shouldn’t you have written "mountain’s lofty top"?
And unless you meant to raise the questions "which mountain" and which s low vale?" in a reader's mind, you should not have used such deixis-riddled expressions as "the mountain[sic] lofty top" and "that low valley". For that's what "the mountain[sic] lofty top" and "that low vale" does.
In any case, how can one wander between, let alone beside, a mountain’s lofty top and something that by definition ( https://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/vale) is located, at the very least, at the foot of mountains unless one is simultaneously high up in the sky and down on the same earthly level in which “that vale” is located?
And what is it in this piece that creates what you have claimed a writing has to create in order for it to be considered poetry – i.e., deep ideas inside us that move our feelings and emotions and make us say, "This is how 'man' should be or shouldn't be"?
and that low vale, [sic]
I wander beside them to have a look at both."
Shouldn’t you have written "mountain’s lofty top"?
And unless you meant to raise the questions "which mountain" and which s low vale?" in a reader's mind, you should not have used such deixis-riddled expressions as "the mountain[sic] lofty top" and "that low valley". For that's what "the mountain[sic] lofty top" and "that low vale" does.
In any case, how can one wander between, let alone beside, a mountain’s lofty top and something that by definition ( https://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/vale) is located, at the very least, at the foot of mountains unless one is simultaneously high up in the sky and down on the same earthly level in which “that vale” is located?
And what is it in this piece that creates what you have claimed a writing has to create in order for it to be considered poetry – i.e., deep ideas inside us that move our feelings and emotions and make us say, "This is how 'man' should be or shouldn't be"?
18th Oct 2022 2:32pm
1-If you don't know grammar, don't criticise. Don't you know THE NOUN USED AS AN ADJECTIVE? If you don't know this rule, look up "mountaintop" in a dictionary.
2- Can't we walk at the side of a mountain and a valley beside it at the same time?
3- Isn't it great to be a strong man and to defy difficulties and to achieve great purposes? The mountain peak here is a symbol of the utmost success if you don't understand that. Or is success to you limited to see a woman fainting on your chest as an effect of your magic kiss?
4-lf you write lengthy replies, l don't answer you. I only answer what is concise and has sensible meanings.
2- Can't we walk at the side of a mountain and a valley beside it at the same time?
3- Isn't it great to be a strong man and to defy difficulties and to achieve great purposes? The mountain peak here is a symbol of the utmost success if you don't understand that. Or is success to you limited to see a woman fainting on your chest as an effect of your magic kiss?
4-lf you write lengthy replies, l don't answer you. I only answer what is concise and has sensible meanings.
18th Oct 2022 5:28pm
"Or is success to you limited to see [sic seeing] a woman fainting on your chest as an effect of your magic kiss?
I take it not only that your kisses (if you actually ever give them) are not magic, let alone that no one has ever sought them or regarded them as such, but that you have never had the experience of a woman fainting upon your chest because of the way you kissed her.
And while I certainly consider that experience an example of success in making a woman feel she is as desirable and as worthy of affection and attention and of love as she wants to be (as you would know if you ever had it), it is hardly what my understanding of what makes for success in life is limited to. Tell me, do you think that in using ad hominems, you have achieved showing yourself as a successful human being or one that anyone would regard as knowing how to do so?
I take it not only that your kisses (if you actually ever give them) are not magic, let alone that no one has ever sought them or regarded them as such, but that you have never had the experience of a woman fainting upon your chest because of the way you kissed her.
And while I certainly consider that experience an example of success in making a woman feel she is as desirable and as worthy of affection and attention and of love as she wants to be (as you would know if you ever had it), it is hardly what my understanding of what makes for success in life is limited to. Tell me, do you think that in using ad hominems, you have achieved showing yourself as a successful human being or one that anyone would regard as knowing how to do so?
19th Oct 2022 10:14pm
I didn't ask what your poem was about, what its theme was, or what the mountain you speak of (not to mention what climbing it) symbolized.
I asked what there was in **the way you put its subject into words** that had the power to create emotions and feelings in a reader that that would be deep enough to make him or her say "this is what "man" should or shouldn't be".
If you were trying not only to say that "man" should be an entity that doesn't let fear prevent "him" from accomplishing great things, but to create an overwhelming feeling in a reader that he or she should take action to face and subdue some emotion that need to overcome what has prevented them from doing something., there's little here to make the first objective clear or that serves to inspire anyone to do anything at all.
I asked what there was in **the way you put its subject into words** that had the power to create emotions and feelings in a reader that that would be deep enough to make him or her say "this is what "man" should or shouldn't be".
If you were trying not only to say that "man" should be an entity that doesn't let fear prevent "him" from accomplishing great things, but to create an overwhelming feeling in a reader that he or she should take action to face and subdue some emotion that need to overcome what has prevented them from doing something., there's little here to make the first objective clear or that serves to inspire anyone to do anything at all.
19th Oct 2022 10:16pm
I didn't ask what your poem was about, what its theme was, or what the mountain you speak of (not to mention what climbing it) symbolized.
I asked what there was in **the way you put its subject into words** that had the power to create emotions and feelings in a reader that that would be deep enough to make him or her say "this is what "man" should or shouldn't be".
If you were trying not only to say that "man" should be an entity that doesn't let fear prevent "him" from accomplishing great things, but to create an overwhelming feeling in a reader that he or she should take action to face and subdue some emotion that need to overcome what has prevented them from doing something., there's little here to make the first objective clear or that serves to inspire anyone to do anything at all.
I asked what there was in **the way you put its subject into words** that had the power to create emotions and feelings in a reader that that would be deep enough to make him or her say "this is what "man" should or shouldn't be".
If you were trying not only to say that "man" should be an entity that doesn't let fear prevent "him" from accomplishing great things, but to create an overwhelming feeling in a reader that he or she should take action to face and subdue some emotion that need to overcome what has prevented them from doing something., there's little here to make the first objective clear or that serves to inspire anyone to do anything at all.
"Both have been there since Adam's time but he has gone"
If you meant to say that Adam is no longer alive or that he died a long time ago, you haven't said it. In fact, what you've done is to raise the question "Where did he go?"
If you meant to say that Adam is no longer alive or that he died a long time ago, you haven't said it. In fact, what you've done is to raise the question "Where did he go?"
18th Oct 2022 2:50pm
Read the rest of the sentence, and you will understand it perfectly. The fact that you tell me its meaning is enough to show that you understand it. Doesn't the word "exist" mean anything to you?
19th Oct 2022 12:01pm
"Read the rest of the sentence, and you will understand it perfectly. The fact that you tell me its meaning is enough to show that you understand it. Doesn't the word "exist" mean anything to you?"
But I didn't tell you the meaning of your claim that both the mountain and the vale have been around "since Adam's time." And surely you meant to say that both have been in existence before Adam's time. Your claim that they have existed **since** Adam's time (which according to Genesis was something that post-dated the creation of the earth and its mountains and valleys) is one that states that they did not exist until the point in time when Adam was created. So the rest of the sentence does not clarify your claims meaning. It makes it nonsense.
But I didn't tell you the meaning of your claim that both the mountain and the vale have been around "since Adam's time." And surely you meant to say that both have been in existence before Adam's time. Your claim that they have existed **since** Adam's time (which according to Genesis was something that post-dated the creation of the earth and its mountains and valleys) is one that states that they did not exist until the point in time when Adam was created. So the rest of the sentence does not clarify your claims meaning. It makes it nonsense.
"Don't you know THE NOUN USED AS AN ADJECTIVE "
Did you mean to say "Don't you know that **a** noun can be used as an adjective"?
"Can't we walk at the side of a mountain and a valley beside it at the same time?"
But leaving aside that you didn't say where the valley you are walking is located, you didn't say that you walked beside a t the side of a mountain. You said that you walked beside a "mountain lofty top" and that you did that at the same time you walked beside a valley.
"The mountain peak here is a symbol of the utmost success if you don't understand that."
I thought that what was to be taken as symbolizing success is your having been able to climb the moutan peak.
In any case, given that you say in this sentence that seeing that the mountain peak (rather than climbing up to it)! is a symbol of the utmost success is dependent upon my **not** understanding "it" (presumably that the mountain peak is a symbol for this), what is it a symbol of if I **do** understand that you meant the mountain peak to be seen as such?
Sorry, but once again you show that your grasp of how to compose coherent and comprehensible English sentences that actually say what you hear them saying in your head is nowhere as great as you think (and you have claimed) it is.
Did you mean to say "Don't you know that **a** noun can be used as an adjective"?
"Can't we walk at the side of a mountain and a valley beside it at the same time?"
But leaving aside that you didn't say where the valley you are walking is located, you didn't say that you walked beside a t the side of a mountain. You said that you walked beside a "mountain lofty top" and that you did that at the same time you walked beside a valley.
"The mountain peak here is a symbol of the utmost success if you don't understand that."
I thought that what was to be taken as symbolizing success is your having been able to climb the moutan peak.
In any case, given that you say in this sentence that seeing that the mountain peak (rather than climbing up to it)! is a symbol of the utmost success is dependent upon my **not** understanding "it" (presumably that the mountain peak is a symbol for this), what is it a symbol of if I **do** understand that you meant the mountain peak to be seen as such?
Sorry, but once again you show that your grasp of how to compose coherent and comprehensible English sentences that actually say what you hear them saying in your head is nowhere as great as you think (and you have claimed) it is.
18th Oct 2022 7:47pm
1-If we can say, A LOFTY MOUNTAIN TOP, why can't we say A MOUNTAIN LOFTY TOP? What's the grammar rule which you apply here? Can you give me a grammar rule to support your opinion?
2- THE NOUN USED AS AN ADJECTIVE is a common title used in all grammar books. What's wrong with this tittle?
2- THE NOUN USED AS AN ADJECTIVE is a common title used in all grammar books. What's wrong with this tittle?
"If we can say, A LOFTY MOUNTAIN TOP, why can't we say A MOUNTAIN LOFTY TOP? What's the grammar rule which you apply here? Can you give me a grammar rule to support your opinion?"
Leaving aside the fact that you want to speak of how high the peak of the mountain you are walking beside is, the issue is whether the construction you use to do so ("mountain lofty" )does what you think it does given what it is grammatically (a compound adjective that modifies noun top and is a description of what kind of height the top of something other than a mountain has). .
"THE NOUN USED AS AN ADJECTIVE is a common title used in all grammar books. What's wrong with this tittle[sic]?
The issue is not whether there's anything wrong with the particular title of the section in grammar books that sets out one of the ways a noun can be used if that's what the subject of the section of the grammar book it is set over is concerned with. It's whether the sentence in which you claim that "mountain" should be seen in your opening line as having the adjective function that grammar books say nouns can have was set out in good English.
That the undisputed fact that a noun can be used as an adjective is not evidence that your claim about what function the word mountain should be seen as having in your opening line actually has. Nor is it evidence that to convey what you wanted to convey, your claim didn't have to have been set out in the way I said it should have been if it was to convey what you thought you were saying.
Leaving aside the fact that you want to speak of how high the peak of the mountain you are walking beside is, the issue is whether the construction you use to do so ("mountain lofty" )does what you think it does given what it is grammatically (a compound adjective that modifies noun top and is a description of what kind of height the top of something other than a mountain has). .
"THE NOUN USED AS AN ADJECTIVE is a common title used in all grammar books. What's wrong with this tittle[sic]?
The issue is not whether there's anything wrong with the particular title of the section in grammar books that sets out one of the ways a noun can be used if that's what the subject of the section of the grammar book it is set over is concerned with. It's whether the sentence in which you claim that "mountain" should be seen in your opening line as having the adjective function that grammar books say nouns can have was set out in good English.
That the undisputed fact that a noun can be used as an adjective is not evidence that your claim about what function the word mountain should be seen as having in your opening line actually has. Nor is it evidence that to convey what you wanted to convey, your claim didn't have to have been set out in the way I said it should have been if it was to convey what you thought you were saying.
18th Oct 2022 9:31pm
I don't agree with you, and l see that your writing is mere sophistication not worthy to be answered because it will be a waste of time. Write briefly and without sophistication if you want my answers.
18th Oct 2022 9:58pm
So you admit that you are not equipped to understand anything that displays sophistication in style and thought and wording. Thanks for confirming that this is one of your deficiencies.
Did you mean to say that my writing displays sophistry? If so, why should anyone believe your claim? What's your evidence for it?
Did you mean to say that my writing displays sophistry? If so, why should anyone believe your claim? What's your evidence for it?
The syntactical form that we have in "mountain lofty top" is noun + adverb+ noun. So from the point of grammar "mountain lofty": is a compound adjective that is construed with the noun top and that makes clear what kind of top the top referred to in the expression is. It's one that is mountain lofty.
Whereas the syntactical construction of "lofty mountain top" is "adjective (lofty) + noun (mountain top, i.e., the summit of a mountain) " and therefore means the summit of a mountain the height of which is very imposing.
So one cannot use the expression "mountain lofty top" if what one intends to convey is the idea that the top of a mountain is way up there. Given the rules of syntax and grammar, the meaning that these two phrases respectively possess by virtue of their word order, they are not equivalent in meaning.
So there's the grammatical rule that you asked me to provide to show that the phrases are not interchangeable.
But perhaps what I say here is in substance too sophisticated, and not stated simply enough, for you to understand just what this rule is.
Whereas the syntactical construction of "lofty mountain top" is "adjective (lofty) + noun (mountain top, i.e., the summit of a mountain) " and therefore means the summit of a mountain the height of which is very imposing.
So one cannot use the expression "mountain lofty top" if what one intends to convey is the idea that the top of a mountain is way up there. Given the rules of syntax and grammar, the meaning that these two phrases respectively possess by virtue of their word order, they are not equivalent in meaning.
So there's the grammatical rule that you asked me to provide to show that the phrases are not interchangeable.
But perhaps what I say here is in substance too sophisticated, and not stated simply enough, for you to understand just what this rule is.
19th Oct 2022 8:09am
The MOUNTAIN LOFTY TOP is not as you say, " noun + adverb + noun." It is NOUN + ADJECTIVE + NOUN. Correct your information.
Yes, I meant to write "noun + adjective". My failure to write "noun + adjective" does not mean that the phrase "mountain lofty" is not a compound adjective that. even given its placement before the noun "top" is one that modifies that noun "top" and in doing so does not serve to make plain what kind of top a particular top of something other than a mountain is.
Do you deny that "mountain lofty" is a compound adjective? If so, on what grounds?
Do you deny that "mountain lofty" is a compound adjective? If so, on what grounds?
19th Oct 2022 12:33pm
My dear friend, Baldwin, what is the matter with you? I don't mean to say, MOUNTAIN LOFTY. The adjective comes before the noun, not after it. I meant to say, LOFTY TOP. Did yo see the mistake in your last poem, which l wrote a comment on?
"My dear friend, Baldwin, "
So you regard me as your friend, and a dear one at that?. If so, aren't you providing evidence that your claim that you don't "criticise" your friends is a false one?
" what is the matter with you? I don't mean to say, MOUNTAIN LOFTY"
But that's what you did say.
"The adjective comes before the noun, not after it. "
Did I say otherwise?
In any case, what is your answer to my question of what syntactical/grammatical construction you take "mountain lofty" to be. Do you deny that it is a compound adjective.?
"Did yo [sic] see the mistake in your last poem, which l wrote a comment on?"
If you are referring to my piece about whether there was ever anywhere a time of sexual purity, did you see that I provided evidence that contrary to what you claimed, the word "corrupted" can be (and is) i prefixed with "un" and therefore that you are wrong to say that that piece contains a mistake?
BTW, "incorrupted " does indeed mean "uncorrupted", But ts is archaic, and was generally used to say that a body did not suffer decay.. Why should it be used when I am not trying to duplicate the speech of the 17rh century or speak of men as people whose bodies did not suffer decomposition?
So you regard me as your friend, and a dear one at that?. If so, aren't you providing evidence that your claim that you don't "criticise" your friends is a false one?
" what is the matter with you? I don't mean to say, MOUNTAIN LOFTY"
But that's what you did say.
"The adjective comes before the noun, not after it. "
Did I say otherwise?
In any case, what is your answer to my question of what syntactical/grammatical construction you take "mountain lofty" to be. Do you deny that it is a compound adjective.?
"Did yo [sic] see the mistake in your last poem, which l wrote a comment on?"
If you are referring to my piece about whether there was ever anywhere a time of sexual purity, did you see that I provided evidence that contrary to what you claimed, the word "corrupted" can be (and is) i prefixed with "un" and therefore that you are wrong to say that that piece contains a mistake?
BTW, "incorrupted " does indeed mean "uncorrupted", But ts is archaic, and was generally used to say that a body did not suffer decay.. Why should it be used when I am not trying to duplicate the speech of the 17rh century or speak of men as people whose bodies did not suffer decomposition?
Anonymous
19th Oct 2022 6:31pm
Hello there… I’m not sure what the hell is going on above me… but aside from that…
This poem reminded me of the thoughts of Wordsworth and his Daffodil poem. Maybe not in construction, but certainly in sentiment.
I was intrigued by the line “fear of the climb can stop my feet” — I think there’s a lot to be said about how we build situations up in our heads that can cause so much fear and anxiety within us that we don’t even try.
This poem is a good reminder of our own human resilience — that we need only to look within ourselves for the strength that we already own. The ending and how it compares dreamers to the vale and braver hearts finding solace in craggy peaks solidifies that thought well.
Thanks for sharing this piece.
-M
This poem reminded me of the thoughts of Wordsworth and his Daffodil poem. Maybe not in construction, but certainly in sentiment.
I was intrigued by the line “fear of the climb can stop my feet” — I think there’s a lot to be said about how we build situations up in our heads that can cause so much fear and anxiety within us that we don’t even try.
This poem is a good reminder of our own human resilience — that we need only to look within ourselves for the strength that we already own. The ending and how it compares dreamers to the vale and braver hearts finding solace in craggy peaks solidifies that thought well.
Thanks for sharing this piece.
-M
It is a discussion of whether, given what in terms of grammar and syntax" "mountain lofty" is , what J-Z thinks he has said when he speaks of wandering beside a "mountain lofty top and a vale, i.e, that he was wandering beside beside a mountain whose top is lofty and a valley near to it, is what he actually says, and therefore whether he provides evidence that the claims he has often made about how well written his submissions to DUP are should be taken with a grain of salt.
19th Oct 2022 9:45pm
Very dear Missy,
Thank you very much for your read and very kind comment. Your words give me great encouragement because you understand my purpose in the poem. I feel very happy that my poem reminds you of Wordsworth. Please keep in contact. J.Z.
Thank you very much for your read and very kind comment. Your words give me great encouragement because you understand my purpose in the poem. I feel very happy that my poem reminds you of Wordsworth. Please keep in contact. J.Z.
"Very dear Missy,
Thank you very much for your read and very kind comment. Your words give me great encouragement because you understand my purpose in the poem. I feel very happy that my poem reminds you of Wordsworth
"
Here's another example of how you misrepresent and misunderstand what others say to you. Missy didn't say your submission reminded her of Wordsworth. She said that it reminded her of the **thoughts** that Wordsworth expressed in his "I Wandered Lonely as a Cloud" and then only how they were similar in sentiment to what you express in your piece, not in the way your thoughts were "constructed" (which, presumably, means the way you worded them) -- which she implies bore no similarities to the way you "constructed" the thoughts you express in your piece.
And is the purpose of your submission to remind readers of their own "human resilience" — that they "need only to look within [themselves] for the strength that [they] already own.
Given what you say in your submission, its purpose seems to be to note what it was you had to do to determine whether a particular vale is worth more than a particular mountain's peak.
Telling readers that what you had to do in order to determine this was something that was dangerous, hard to do, and involved you overcoming a fear of heights, is a side issue.
Cue the response that focuses only on whether "similarities to" is correct.
Thank you very much for your read and very kind comment. Your words give me great encouragement because you understand my purpose in the poem. I feel very happy that my poem reminds you of Wordsworth
"
Here's another example of how you misrepresent and misunderstand what others say to you. Missy didn't say your submission reminded her of Wordsworth. She said that it reminded her of the **thoughts** that Wordsworth expressed in his "I Wandered Lonely as a Cloud" and then only how they were similar in sentiment to what you express in your piece, not in the way your thoughts were "constructed" (which, presumably, means the way you worded them) -- which she implies bore no similarities to the way you "constructed" the thoughts you express in your piece.
And is the purpose of your submission to remind readers of their own "human resilience" — that they "need only to look within [themselves] for the strength that [they] already own.
Given what you say in your submission, its purpose seems to be to note what it was you had to do to determine whether a particular vale is worth more than a particular mountain's peak.
Telling readers that what you had to do in order to determine this was something that was dangerous, hard to do, and involved you overcoming a fear of heights, is a side issue.
Cue the response that focuses only on whether "similarities to" is correct.
