some of us were up at 6;30 and in work by 7:30.  ..perhaps if you weren't so argumentative you'd be ready for work. ..but if you like I can write a note to your boss ..tell him I kept you busy

lepperochan said:some of us were up at 6;30 and in work by 7:30.  ..perhaps if you weren't so argumentative you'd be ready for work. ..but if you like I can write a note to your boss ..tell him I kept you busy

Come on Lep, you know I did a 12 hour shift yesterday.

Dear Magdalena's boss

truth is, she has to have the last word  

lepperochan said:Dear Magdalena's boss

truth is, she has to have the last word  





Hey, I open (our convo) with the first word and close with the last.  It has to have a beginning and an end. I'm just maintaining equilibrium.

"Pushing the boundaries" does not entail sending nasty-grams by private message and writing & posting poems that specifically target another member with intent to demean, hurt, discredit or harm in some way. It also isn't a free pass to be a troll in the forums, post spam and advertising and take out one's personal problems on others here.

So unless we actually spell all that out in the user agreement like speaking to a chlld, then we assume that people can and should be able to deduce and figure that out as the adults they (supposedly in some cases) are.

Everytime this topic comes up, the same go-around happens and I say that all freedoms must be used in conjunction with wisdom--just because you can, should you really, in all instances?

Craic, you mention the forums from 3 years ago--I recall them being very hostile and unwelcoming and I also recall you coming to my defense, many times, because you saw that I was being targeted by some. I still appreciate that you did that, but I hardly think we're pandering to snowflakes--it's just common courtesy to have a little respect for fellow members, regardless of their beliefs or ability to interact with others.  Boxing rings are the place for beating the crap out of someone --not poetry forums. "Pushing the boundaries " means stretching oneself to think outside the box, write outside the box by exploring new styles, ideas and topics, not overstep the boundaries and be a stalker, be hateful, disrespect others and everything else that causes people to cry "censorship " when even that term is also overused and too broadly interpreted.

It gets old after a while--bottom line:  if you want to pick a fight, go to the boxing ring. If you want to write, improve your writing, form a network of contemporaries and colleagues and even some friends, then "here" is the place for that .

you make fair points, Doc

I think we have these kind of  talks on the forums regular, but I don't think it gets old  because we are always evolving and always attract new members.

I agree totally about pm's nasty-grams etc and trust you and your colleagues can handle that easy enough.

I think we can all go over the negatives of something without giving much thought.  there were occasions where an amount of hostility was present, but members like myself and others were always on hand  

there's no getting away from the fact that the forums had a much better rate of participation and a much better quality of debate and thoughts etc

I personally don't want to send people nasty-grams or pick fights with people. that's not what freedom means to me and I think its sad that people automatically tar everyone with said brush when trying to make a point. I refer to the above correlation I made with abortion. just because its made legal doesn't mean every woman in the country is going to rush out and have on


nobody gets beat up here because its cyber world. people may get offended but so what. and I mean 'so what'  with respect. what's it to you if I get offended by someones words. will you fix it ? my understanding of being offended is its a fleeting feeling. ..a feeling.


I'm not crying censorship. far from it , but your rhetoric seems geared towards demeaning people because they don't hold the same views as you. they're children or always crying about this or that


there's a lot to be said for humility, I try it sometimes

lepperochan said:

there's no getting away from the fact that the forums had a much better rate of participation and a much better quality of debate and thoughts etc

nobody gets beat up here because its cyber world. people may get offended but so what. and I mean 'so what'  with respect. what's it to you if I get offended by someones words. will you fix it ? my understanding of being offended is its a fleeting feeling. ..a feeling.


I'm not crying censorship. far from it , but your rhetoric seems geared towards demeaning people because they don't hold the same views as you. they're children or always crying about this or that


there's a lot to be said for humility, I try it sometimes

Well, the forums were well traveled a few years ago for many reasons --one was an onslaught of spammers and bots, another was the members that were here at the time. Some chose to act like bullies, some became victims, others left because of all of that. Who wants to try to focus on writing when you're getting picked on or slogging through spam posts?

"Beat up" doesn't exclusively refer to a physical fight in person --it can also mean mentally and emotionally and that's just as valid as being punched in the face during a barroom brawl. "So what ?" You say?  Not everyone can just shrug it off and move on as well as others can--it's human nature , and I'm certainly not being heavy handed with my own personal views, but even if I did, why is it so wrong to have a little compassion for those around you, regardless of what they believe, themselves ?

I'm talking along the lines of those who deliberately write something to stick it in someone else's face, like a degrading poem, which we've seen many of at times as well as a couple of recent instances of demeaning forum signatures being posted in user accounts, meant to target individuals in a negative manner.

People can certainly express their views here without being a complete jerk about it.

I agree, there's no need for the kind of stuff you talk about, I imagine most people would agree too.  bots, and spammers fair play to yourself and the others have gotten it sorted. we don't seem to get them much now, and if we do they're gone in no time at all

I'm not condoning negative posts, that said I'm not alien to them either. true, I can shrug stuff off handy enough or I can get annoyed and  post my annoyance, if I'm wrong i'll oppolagise and maybe ask for forgiveness. but like you say, its human nature.

I have tons of compassion, but I don't expect everyone to have some, same way as I don't expect everyone to be able to shrug stuff off. we are a community of many people and personalities, sometimes we argue, again that's human nature too. there is an apparatus available to us if we want to argue, its called the boiler room. the boiler room is out of sight to members who don't go looking for it

I think the type of forums you speak of stopped because we matured as a group. there was only one mod at that time ( Jestalessa )  (( hullo Jesta!! )) point being it was the people who changed not a band of Moderators who tamed the place


edit: one of the many problems with this is the lack of consistency, you speak of poets who target others with poetry yet appear to turn a blind eye when it suits.

I would say keep them up, because they say more about the author than they do about the victim ( for want of a better word )




 

The bottom line is…Things are not handled fairly, equally and non-personal level for sometime but escalating more in the last 9 months or so.  There’s great deal of obsessive control beyond the norm, to show either to themselves that they’re doing a terrific job or to the owner of the site that they’re indispensable; but either way, its affected the site greatly.
It may seem that there’s peaceful calm existence to the public eye but at the cost of transforming the site to something completely different at what it advertises itself to be.

I find this conversation bewildering, maybe I am to a certain extent out of the loop, therefore I might have missed some stuff.

I don’t get or feel the low mood of DUP in fact quite the opposite. In the main I have found it helpful welcoming and supportive. I have had a few off colour remarks about poems I have written, But I have never felt the need to formally complain. Only in recent weeks have I actually blocked one person, my first on DUP (hopefully my last). I am totally a fan of DUP regardless of other people’s views and opinions.

Clearly, personal attacks or bullying of DUP members should be sanctioned, that is completely sensible for the good of the DUP community. I think censorship should end there. Poetry is an art form and like any other literature should be protected from censorship. Poetry should illicit an emotional response within the reader, anything from joy to rage. It should challenge the mind and rage against “the man”, sexually arouse, be child like, be adult. Poetry is so many different things that demand many different responses. If we place limits on a community, who decides?

Can I write any, all or some of the poems below?

1.   A poem comparing feminism to cancer
2.   A poem about Islam being evil
3.   A Poem that is anti Christian
4.   A poem that is anti LGBT
5.   A Poem written through the eyes of a Nazi
6.   A poem extolling the virtues of S & M
7.   A poem complaining about Israel
8.   A Poem asking for the assassination of Trump
9.   A Poem supporting the Alt-right or Alt-left
10.    A poem that is anti abortion
11.    A poem that is pro-life
12.    A poem about Islamic terrorism
13.    A poem about incest
14.    A poem extolling Satanism
15.    A poem in support of the KKK
16.    A poem in support of ANTIFA
17.    A poem in support of ISIS

Ok I have run out of steam for examples, I am sure there are a lot more that some people might find offensive. Is there anything wrong with a poem being offensive to some? If we were to ban poetry deemed to be offensive to some there would be very little left to read.

I sadly do not have to get ready for work and DUP is, in the main, my life or lifeline. I looked around a lot before joining DUP and in my view DUP is the best poetry site I have come across, in it’s present format if there are calls to restrict or censor out with the personal attack thing, then it would not be DUP.

“Deep Underground Poetry” the term must have some meaning

I am off to prepare for a few hours of torture (Physio) I value my place on DUP and would fight to keep it well away from undue censorship

David

KublaiSwan said:If no, DeepUnderground Poetry is the perfect place for you

If yes, you will never be able to explore that notion on this website.

Perhaps you should inform yourself before making little rants about the website.

Here you go.
https://deepundergroundpoetry.com/terms/

lepperochan said:




I think the type of forums you speak of stopped because we matured as a group. there was only one mod at that time ( Jestalessa )  (( hullo Jesta!! )) point being it was the people who changed not a band of Moderators who tamed the place


edit: one of the many problems with this is the lack of consistency, you speak of poets who target others with poetry yet appear to turn a blind eye when it suits.

 

I agree that there has been an increase in the maturity level, due to many factors --us as individuals, new members that have come onboard and have been a positive influence, and yes, mods too.

Regardless of who feels what about the mod's, at least now we have a group that actually logs in regularly and participates, unlike how it was in the "good old days". Aside from Grace, I recall being pretty much the only other one that did any of the mod duties back in the day. I even remember Evan constantly complaining "where the f--- are the mod's?!" when the forums were getting riled up.

As for the supposed favoritism, I only speak for myself when I say that I'm not partial to one member's personal attacks over another's--they're all forms of bullying and there's enough bad crap in the world without adding to it on a poetry website.

There's ways to express strong opinions without coming across as abusive and an idiot. Saying something like "I can see your point, but I disagree and here's why.." Is vastly different than saying "this is how it is and you're a shitbag for thinking how you do ".

Sorry , I'm gonna deal with the shitbag comments as being in need of corrective action because it's really not necessary to act like that. I don't care who starts it, or partakes in it--they'll all be addressed.

Sorry, I said  'you' appear to turn a blind eye. should have been collective. If I were a mod I would have said 'we'


I don't really want to start posting examples because I don't think it'll get us anywhere..

I do agree with a lot of what you've said.  I think the reality now would be different. ie I don't envisage an environment such as what you described occurred in the past


for instance, I've noticed the forums run virtually mod free now for the most part. I don't see they've descended into anything worth writing about.

I do get it though, I get what you say and your reasons for your stance. I don't think any less of you for it.


Just to clarify the mood and why I think it's low

forums. no offense to anyone but the forums aren't very engaging. I judge the mood of this place by how people engage with each other.

do you remember fun?  do you remember when people left this place only to sleep, people fell asleep on their keyboard

that's the kind of environment I am talking about.

I really don't want another slug out with mods. I make mistakes, more than a few.  I made some when I was a mod and observed others doing the same. we are all human

I get it, Craic.  I do remember fun and I think fun can still be had. I think too, that life changes for everyone at times and people come and go, depending on what else they have going on. Part of it too, is the loss of some members because of all the prior trolls and spammers, and that's the crux of it all--to prevent a mass exodus again because of an uninviting and hostile environment and unfortunately some see the actions we  need to take to keep this at bay, as censorship and abuse of our own powers as mods.

Thanks, for the record I found this thread engaging enough.

I think we all need to look at ourselves  in the context of people leaving the place. sure,  people have left because of Drama, same goes for people who have left because the regime. or perceived regime. so we can probably  all accept some culpability in that regard

nonetheless, there are people here now... Many ones of people, so while I miss most of the characters who are gone, the site still offers a grand diverse of people so, I  think fun can be had without brining back the old days.

I think maybe we should lean towards mending what ever rifts have rifted. again it would entail all parties accepting responsibility and working from there.