deepundergroundpoetry.com
I've walked out far into the night
I’ve walked out far into the night,
foot-marked its sad beginnings and its ends.
I’ve measured-stepped myself within
its deepest deprivations of starlight and all the circling moon’s cold whisperings
upon the lawns, the fences, and the heaths
that lined my ambled way.
I’ve stood upon its shadings of
the cobblestones along my street,
and braved its scoldings in
its chilling bursts of wind,
its sudden angry blusters that
it sends through narrow alleyways
and lays upon the dark-leaved trees.
I’ve tasted its concealings of the lovers’ bliss
the dying one’s lament,
the sorrowings that move, conspire,
to separate the hopeless from their lives.
I’ve seen just how it serves a storyteller’s art
when he, in hollow voice, spools out a tale
of ghosts and paling, flitting, empty things
by ringing it in tingling mysteries
that only night-time knows.
I’ve seen the lonely porch light softly signify
the wee houred welcoming that still
awaits the weary one, work pressed deprived
his home.
I’ve heard the poor dog’s tethered lamentations sound
his plaint against a dark abandonment.
And I have known the daybreak’s slowly born
constraint of dusk’s despoilings and its joys
for I have walked out far within the night.
Published 4th Sep 2023
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Dear Baldwin,
I’ve measured-stepped myself within
its deepest deprivations of starlight and all the circling moon’s cold whisperings
upon the lawns, the fences, and the heaths
that lined my ambled way.
1- Shouldn't MEASUREED-STEPPED be Step-measured?
2-In the dark night, we don't care about the moon's whispering, but about its light.
I’ve measured-stepped myself within
its deepest deprivations of starlight and all the circling moon’s cold whisperings
upon the lawns, the fences, and the heaths
that lined my ambled way.
1- Shouldn't MEASUREED-STEPPED be Step-measured?
2-In the dark night, we don't care about the moon's whispering, but about its light.
"1- Shouldn't MEASUREED-STEPPED be Step-measured?
I did not write "measureed". And why should I have written "Step- measured" let alone "step-measured"?.
"2-In the dark night, we don't care about the moon's whispering but its light."
Says who?
In any case, you fail to see that when the speaker says he has walked within the moon's whisperings upon the lawns and fences and heaths he has then walked by, he is not only speaking of the moon's light (what do you think its whisperings are?) but that this walk within the moon's whisperings is on an occasion that is different from the one in which the night has deprived him of the sight of starlight.
I did not write "measureed". And why should I have written "Step- measured" let alone "step-measured"?.
"2-In the dark night, we don't care about the moon's whispering but its light."
Says who?
In any case, you fail to see that when the speaker says he has walked within the moon's whisperings upon the lawns and fences and heaths he has then walked by, he is not only speaking of the moon's light (what do you think its whisperings are?) but that this walk within the moon's whisperings is on an occasion that is different from the one in which the night has deprived him of the sight of starlight.
5th Sep 2023 12:52pm
Dear Baldwin,
1- What is "on;y speaking. Sorry, Baldwin. I am doing now as you do.
2- Why didn't you answer my first question? "Shouldn't measured-stepped be,'step-measured'?"
1- What is "on;y speaking. Sorry, Baldwin. I am doing now as you do.
2- Why didn't you answer my first question? "Shouldn't measured-stepped be,'step-measured'?"
5th Sep 2023 2:59pm
"Dear Baldwin,
1- What is "on;y speaking. [sic "?]
It's a typo. The key on my keyboard that produces ";" is right next to the key that produces "l".
"Sorry, Baldwin. I am doing now as you do."
No need to apologize. You are doing what I want done when I make orthographical mistakes. despite how often you have told me (hypocritically?) that doing this is unjustified and trivial nitpicking and that I should not point out (as I did above) your typos -- even though your frequent misuse of punctuation (another example above) can hardly be explained as typos.
1- What is "on;y speaking. [sic "?]
It's a typo. The key on my keyboard that produces ";" is right next to the key that produces "l".
"Sorry, Baldwin. I am doing now as you do."
No need to apologize. You are doing what I want done when I make orthographical mistakes. despite how often you have told me (hypocritically?) that doing this is unjustified and trivial nitpicking and that I should not point out (as I did above) your typos -- even though your frequent misuse of punctuation (another example above) can hardly be explained as typos.
"2- Why didn't you answer my first question? "Shouldn't measured-stepped be, [sic why the comma here and no space between the comma and "stepped-measured"?] '[sic ', not '] step-measured'?"" "
Because I have no reason to think it should be "step measured" especially since "measured-stepped" is an ellipsis for "measured by stepping myself within".
And speaking of not answering questions, you have not answered my question as to why you think "measured-stepped" should be changed to "step-measured".
Now why haven't you admitted that you were wrong to think that I didn't write about the moon's light?
Because I have no reason to think it should be "step measured" especially since "measured-stepped" is an ellipsis for "measured by stepping myself within".
And speaking of not answering questions, you have not answered my question as to why you think "measured-stepped" should be changed to "step-measured".
Now why haven't you admitted that you were wrong to think that I didn't write about the moon's light?
J-Z
Perhaps you'll tell me how this piece of mine shows that my submissions are always, in theme, subject, substance, style, and phraseology, imitations of your submissions.
Perhaps you'll tell me how this piece of mine shows that my submissions are always, in theme, subject, substance, style, and phraseology, imitations of your submissions.
5th Sep 2023 3:20pm
1- l find no sense, but a mistake in," l've measured-stepped myself." At least, it should be l've measured and stepped myself to become a correct English verbal expression..
2- l said in darkness one should be interested in the moonlight and not speech, and l didn'd tell you what you should have written.
2- l said in darkness one should be interested in the moonlight and not speech, and l didn'd tell you what you should have written.
"1- l find no sense, but a mistake in," l've measured-stepped myself." At least, it should be l've measured and stepped myself to become a correct English verbal expression."
Except you've shown many times that you don't know what correct English verbal expressions are. So I have no reason to think that you know what you are talking about.
On top of that, "step-measured" would cause the line to be metrically unsound. And given that you have often stated that it is quite permissible to include solecisms in a line if in doing so, one maintains the intended "rhythm" of that line, your criticism is hypocritical.
"2- l said in darkness one should be interested in the moonlight and not speech"
Sometimes all one is interested in when in darkness is darkness. So your claim about what one **should** be interested in when in darkness is both overstated, false, and unsubstantiated.
And once again you fail to see that what is meant by the moon's whispering upon things is not speech but ts shedding of its light.
"and l didn'd [sic didn't] tell you what you should have written."
Oh, so "1- Shouldn't MEASUREED-STEPPED be Step-measured? " was not your telling me that I should have written "step-measured" instead of "measureed [sic] stepped"?
Except you've shown many times that you don't know what correct English verbal expressions are. So I have no reason to think that you know what you are talking about.
On top of that, "step-measured" would cause the line to be metrically unsound. And given that you have often stated that it is quite permissible to include solecisms in a line if in doing so, one maintains the intended "rhythm" of that line, your criticism is hypocritical.
"2- l said in darkness one should be interested in the moonlight and not speech"
Sometimes all one is interested in when in darkness is darkness. So your claim about what one **should** be interested in when in darkness is both overstated, false, and unsubstantiated.
And once again you fail to see that what is meant by the moon's whispering upon things is not speech but ts shedding of its light.
"and l didn'd [sic didn't] tell you what you should have written."
Oh, so "1- Shouldn't MEASUREED-STEPPED be Step-measured? " was not your telling me that I should have written "step-measured" instead of "measureed [sic] stepped"?
I’ve stood upon its shadings of
the cobblestones along my street,
1-Its shading: Whose shading? Do you mean the night's or the way's shading?
2-of the cobblestones: Do you mean ON the cobblestones?
the cobblestones along my street,
1-Its shading: Whose shading? Do you mean the night's or the way's shading?
2-of the cobblestones: Do you mean ON the cobblestones?
"I’ve stood upon its shadings of
the cobblestones along my street,
1-Its shading: Whose shading? Do you mean the night's or the way's shading?"
It's quite clear that it's the night's shadings. How can a "way" shade things?
"2-of the cobblestones: Do you mean ON the cobblestones?"
No. Night does not cast shadings on anything. It shades things.
the cobblestones along my street,
1-Its shading: Whose shading? Do you mean the night's or the way's shading?"
It's quite clear that it's the night's shadings. How can a "way" shade things?
"2-of the cobblestones: Do you mean ON the cobblestones?"
No. Night does not cast shadings on anything. It shades things.
You really need to shorten this piece, a little minimalism can go a long way.
"its deepest deprivations of starlight and all the circling moon’s cold whisperings", this line in particular really needs a lot of work.
I would suggest not using so much alliteration, it does not work at all.
I've posted this haiku and tanka query that you had here.
Unfortunately, like many westerners you believe that the Japanese wrote in syllables, they didn't, they wrote in onji, you've made a common beginners mistake. This is a quote from William J. Higginson and Penny Harter's famous "Haiku Handbook", published in 1985.
"Many Western authors have fallen into the simplistic trap of saying that seventeen-syllable poem in three lines of five, seven, five syllables. This has led to whole classrooms of teachers and children counting English syllables as they attempt to write haiku (and tanka). But Japanese haiku are written in Japanese. In fact, Japanese poets do not count "syllables" at all. Rather, they count onji. The Japanese word onji does not mean "syllable", it means "sound symbol", and refers to one of the phonetic characters used in writing Japanese phonetic script."
You've made a very common mistake, something teachers like myself are having to correct with students, particularly if they want to have their haiku or tanka published in Japan. I recommend that your haiku contain no more than 12-14 syllables and your tanka, no more than 20-24 at the most.
For example, here is the winner of Mainichi Haiku Contest.
spring wind -
I too
am dust
by Patricia Donegan.
Thank you for reading and I hope I have explained how to write haiku and tanka in a clear and precise fashion.
If you do decide to send any haiku or tanka to Japan I would be very happy to read it for you and give you advice.
🙏 Mo
"its deepest deprivations of starlight and all the circling moon’s cold whisperings", this line in particular really needs a lot of work.
I would suggest not using so much alliteration, it does not work at all.
I've posted this haiku and tanka query that you had here.
Unfortunately, like many westerners you believe that the Japanese wrote in syllables, they didn't, they wrote in onji, you've made a common beginners mistake. This is a quote from William J. Higginson and Penny Harter's famous "Haiku Handbook", published in 1985.
"Many Western authors have fallen into the simplistic trap of saying that seventeen-syllable poem in three lines of five, seven, five syllables. This has led to whole classrooms of teachers and children counting English syllables as they attempt to write haiku (and tanka). But Japanese haiku are written in Japanese. In fact, Japanese poets do not count "syllables" at all. Rather, they count onji. The Japanese word onji does not mean "syllable", it means "sound symbol", and refers to one of the phonetic characters used in writing Japanese phonetic script."
You've made a very common mistake, something teachers like myself are having to correct with students, particularly if they want to have their haiku or tanka published in Japan. I recommend that your haiku contain no more than 12-14 syllables and your tanka, no more than 20-24 at the most.
For example, here is the winner of Mainichi Haiku Contest.
spring wind -
I too
am dust
by Patricia Donegan.
Thank you for reading and I hope I have explained how to write haiku and tanka in a clear and precise fashion.
If you do decide to send any haiku or tanka to Japan I would be very happy to read it for you and give you advice.
🙏 Mo
“You really need to shorten this piece, a little minimalism can go a long way.”
It can also lead to a submission being “all tell” and “no show”. It is, after all, the use of felicitous, concrete sensual images that lead to the creation of experience in a reader – which is what, in the view of some of the best-published poets and teachers of poetry, is the aim of poetry.
On this, see Walt Macdonald’s essay “Advice I wish I had been told”.
https://www.valpo.edu/vpr/mcdonaldessay.html
"its deepest deprivations of starlight and all the circling moon’s cold whisperings", this line in particular really needs a lot of work.
“I would suggest not using so much alliteration,”
So much alliteration? As far as I can see, the only alliterative phrase here is “deepest deprivations”.
“ it does not work at all. “
In your eyes, perhaps. But I doubt if it does this in the eyes of other readers or by anyone who reads the line out loud. In any case, I’d be grateful if you'd define what you mean by “work” and let me know what your criteria are for judging whether something does or does not “work”.
“Unfortunately, like many westerners you believe that the Japanese wrote in syllables,”
I’d be pleased if you could show me where I expressed such a belief.
“ they didn't, they wrote in onji, you've made a common beginners mistake. This is a quote from William J. Higginson and Penny Harter's famous "Haiku Handbook", published in 1985.
"Many Western authors have fallen into the simplistic trap of saying that seventeen-syllable poem in three lines of five, seven, five syllables. This has led to whole classrooms of teachers and children counting English syllables as they attempt to write haiku (and tanka). But Japanese haiku are written in Japanese”“
But you are not writing in Japanese.
“You've made a very common mistake, something teachers like myself are having to correct with students, particularly if they want to have their haiku or tanka published in Japan.”
Is that where you wished to be published? In any case. By posting in DUP, you are not writing for a Japanese audience. You are writing for a Western one that understands what a wriing should look like it it is to be taken as a haiku.
“I recommend that your haiku contain no more than 12-14 syllables and your tanka, no more than 20-24 at the most.
For example, here is the winner of Mainichi Haiku Contest.
spring wind -
I too
am dust “
I note that unlike what you have written in the syllabic” form you recommend that any attempt on my or your part to write a haiku should be cast in, the effectiveness of this piece is grounded not in how brief it is, but in how its assertion that something that one might not think was made up of dust is what the spring wind carries is a thought-provoking truth that cannot be denied I do not think that the assertion that dandelions are sentient beings, let alone beings that desire subtle winds, expresses any relatable, even if surprisable, truth of how much alike things are to a dandelion or its wishes, even if the piece it appears in is formally correct according to the “rules” of composition governing the way certain types of Japanese poetry are to be set out in.
But I thank you for your remarks.
It can also lead to a submission being “all tell” and “no show”. It is, after all, the use of felicitous, concrete sensual images that lead to the creation of experience in a reader – which is what, in the view of some of the best-published poets and teachers of poetry, is the aim of poetry.
On this, see Walt Macdonald’s essay “Advice I wish I had been told”.
https://www.valpo.edu/vpr/mcdonaldessay.html
"its deepest deprivations of starlight and all the circling moon’s cold whisperings", this line in particular really needs a lot of work.
“I would suggest not using so much alliteration,”
So much alliteration? As far as I can see, the only alliterative phrase here is “deepest deprivations”.
“ it does not work at all. “
In your eyes, perhaps. But I doubt if it does this in the eyes of other readers or by anyone who reads the line out loud. In any case, I’d be grateful if you'd define what you mean by “work” and let me know what your criteria are for judging whether something does or does not “work”.
“Unfortunately, like many westerners you believe that the Japanese wrote in syllables,”
I’d be pleased if you could show me where I expressed such a belief.
“ they didn't, they wrote in onji, you've made a common beginners mistake. This is a quote from William J. Higginson and Penny Harter's famous "Haiku Handbook", published in 1985.
"Many Western authors have fallen into the simplistic trap of saying that seventeen-syllable poem in three lines of five, seven, five syllables. This has led to whole classrooms of teachers and children counting English syllables as they attempt to write haiku (and tanka). But Japanese haiku are written in Japanese”“
But you are not writing in Japanese.
“You've made a very common mistake, something teachers like myself are having to correct with students, particularly if they want to have their haiku or tanka published in Japan.”
Is that where you wished to be published? In any case. By posting in DUP, you are not writing for a Japanese audience. You are writing for a Western one that understands what a wriing should look like it it is to be taken as a haiku.
“I recommend that your haiku contain no more than 12-14 syllables and your tanka, no more than 20-24 at the most.
For example, here is the winner of Mainichi Haiku Contest.
spring wind -
I too
am dust “
I note that unlike what you have written in the syllabic” form you recommend that any attempt on my or your part to write a haiku should be cast in, the effectiveness of this piece is grounded not in how brief it is, but in how its assertion that something that one might not think was made up of dust is what the spring wind carries is a thought-provoking truth that cannot be denied I do not think that the assertion that dandelions are sentient beings, let alone beings that desire subtle winds, expresses any relatable, even if surprisable, truth of how much alike things are to a dandelion or its wishes, even if the piece it appears in is formally correct according to the “rules” of composition governing the way certain types of Japanese poetry are to be set out in.
But I thank you for your remarks.
