CHRISTMAS

"In Your creche, l find Your target  
of the love the world would neglect."  
 
Who is it you are speaking to here?  That is to say, to whom does the creche you note is "yours" belong?  And what is the target in the creche  of the love that the world (supposedly) wants to neglect?  There are a lot of things and people in the typical  modeled representation or tableau of Mary, Joseph, and others around the crib of Jesus in the stable at Bethlehem  (in which Jesus was not born, BTW.  Luke says he was born at the place **in a house** where animals where kept, given that the house's "guest room" [κατάλυμα} in which Mary and Joseph had intended to stay was occupied).  
   
"People live in their high tower"    
   
Better "people {a word repeated below] live in their  high towerS".  
   
"and the Lord's in His stone bower."  [i.e.,  and the lord lives in his stone bower].
   
So far as we know, and of course accepting Luke's nativity story as true [Matthew says nothing about Jesus being born in a place where animals were taken in for the night, let alone being placed in a φάτνη],  Jesus was in the Bethlehem manger for a very short period of time (at the most, a week -- see Luke 2:21).  And as Luke asserts, he did not stay in Bethlehem  (see Luke 2:39] and and even if Matthew is correct in saying that he did until Joseph took him and Mary into Egypt,  he certainly did not live in  the "bower" in which Luke (but not Matthew) says Jesus was placed after he was born.    
   
This is yet another example of your distorting, and showing a wholesale disregard for, or ignorance of,  what scripture actually says .

Or are you saying that there is a contrast between where the mighty are born and where Jesus was born.  If so,  the word "live"  is not apt.  
   
More important, though, is the fact that you are once again sacrificing sense (and truth) on the altar of rhyme.    
   
"People are pleased with their gaining  
through corruption and misdealing."  
   
Besides your once again claiming as you often without warrant do,  omnisciency about what  all people are pleased with, this sentence is incomplete.  Gaining what?

(And wishing a merry Christmas to Baldwin (above) as well.  I think it CAN be nice to enjoy Christmas today, as it also evolved from some very pagan practices.  You start to dig in the story of Christmas you kind of loose track of the present moment.

You are ill informed.

https://talesoftimesforgotten.com/2019/12/08/just-how-pagan-is-christmas-really/

Sometimes when you want to dig too deep you get  lost in the spirit of the moment.   I have read tons on the subject of religions at  large (and from the ''onset'' of venerations and  idolatries).    Read tons in regards to the history of the catholic Church in particular.  I really do not need to be told to verify some weird line in the Bible, a  bunch of  books written by Men, and zero dictated by ANY  God or god.  You interpret the bible as you please and certainly not as an overall truth for everybody to follow.

And here I thought the issue was not the truth of what one finds in various books of the Bible, let alone that what one finds there is open to interpretation, but the veracity of your claim that  many aspects the way Christmas is celebrated have "pagan" roots.

BTW,  where did I ask you to verify any line in the bible, let alone a "weird" one?

But thanks for the red herrings.

I wish you could express yourself clearly.  You are weird.

What is not clear in my message about how your claim that the way Christians celebrate Christmas is rooted in pagan practices is what I was responding to and that your message in reply to mine raised issues that were about a different subject altogether?

And how does my being "weird"  have anything to do with whether what I said in my message is untrue?

Pleeeeeeease.   You can go over all the biblical texts you want and analyze them to death. You can go the pagan solstices and figure that no way was Jesus born on dec 25.  And of course no way would later the guy die on the cross and be raised from the dead.  You can research and argue to death.  But can you, perhaps, leave it aside for  a minute and enjoy the magic of  Sanata Claus and the gifts of  Christmas without all the theological stuff for a minute?

But where did I go over Biblical tests in my message about how your claim that Christian's Christmas practices are rooted in pagan ones?

Please name the ones you are now implicitly claiming I "went over".

If we are going to correct each other:  is it  Biblical  tests...or texts.   Spellcheck, please.

Quire right.  Thank you.  Texts.   Now how about answering without dodging what I asked of you.

Do you hold a degree in theology from a reputable (not fundamentalist) university?  Are you fluent in any Biblical language or in Patristic Latin?

When you say "tons"  can you give a figure to that?   How modern are the works that you've read and from what publishers?

Gee.  I am  72 years of age. I am a reader, I was born a catholic and went to mass when it  was still in latin. I am (I think) well-read enough in the fields of sociology,  Greek, Roman and Northern Mythologies (a bit through Ludwig II and Wagner).  I read tons over the histories of the Ceasars, and The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire. TRead tons aout the history of the Catholic Church in general and of the Popes in particular (remember the pope whose house was actually a brothel?)  Read tons about the history of Islam and the caliphates all the way to Spain.  Read a good deal about Islam and Mohammed and the fights to the deaths over his succession (a fight which, in a manner still goes on today:  look at Iran versus saudi Arabia). I read tons over the History of Time.  Fascinating stuff. I must say that, trying to read the bible and starting at the Old Testament and the ''begat and begat'' bores me to death. A bit more familiar with the New Testament.  Some ''nice'' lessons in there, but don't want to be led blindly by the stuff.  And, by the way, the way we see the hypocrisy of priests (pedophiles for some, homosexuals for others......and for  (lesbian) nuns who also abused younger girls in their care, I would not like  to see  ANY one of them trying to preach to me.  Not even the fat pigs in purple robes.

Very dear Baldwin,
Thank you very much, Baldwin, for your great interest. Believe me, after l have typed more than three lines here, l've cancelled them as i find that all your questions are clearly found in the poem, and it is silly of me to answer them. Please, read the poem once more, and you yourself will answer all your questions. Anyhow, thank you very much for your suggestions. I will take them into consideration.

I've read the piece again and I find that the questions that I asked are not answered in your submission, let alone clearly.  So I ask them again in hope that instead of dodging them as you've just done, you'll speak to them directly.  So it is not "silly" to do so.  It is you acting responsibly.

And what suggestions of mine are you going to take into consideration?

Very dear Robert,
Thank you very much for your interest.

Happy Christmas, Joseph!

I think there is great love in what others perceive as weakness.

To be mild and let your weakness show, not hide it behind a mask, that is real strength and courage. Everybody can be loud and take their problems out on others. But to be mild and deal with what is really the problem, that is strength.

How does saying that you liked the message of  some of the verses in  J-Z's submission fulfill his request for **honest criticism** (an analysis of how and why the submission does or does not display the characteristics of good poetry in the way it is worded and set out)?

Encourage and request mean different things. Encourage does not mean “you can not write anything but criticism here”. I have nothing to criticize, but I do like something about it, and in my experience most poets appreciate it when you take the time to point out what you like about their work. That is why when I like something, I point it out. There is really no more to it than that.

Also, we have a topic where you can specifically request only criticism. If someone really wants nothing but criticism that is the place to go.

a topic?

A group. It's called Cafe Critique.

Merry Christmas, very dear Ahavati.
Personally, l find love only in weakness because l don't like the arrogant.

So the fact that you don't like the arrogant  is why there is (supposedly)  no love in them?  If you liked them,  there would be?  That's the logical implication of your assertion.

Merry Christmas, very dear AltairEndian.

Merry Christmas to you too :)

You seem to be unaware that, given your "twofold use of "Your" in these lines  

"In Your creche, l find Your target
of the love the world would neglect."

you are saying that you find in the place where the baby Jesus was placed after he was wrapped in swaddling clothes (your -- i.e.,  Jesus' --creche)  the target of Jesus' (your) often neglected love.  And when this is unpacked,  it's an assertion that is absurd,  especially if, as seems to be the case,  what you are  asserting  was in the place where the baby Jesus was resting after his birth' (a manger, not a creche)  was the baby Jesus himself,  what your lines claim is that the target of Jesus' love was himself in his baby form.   And if what was in the manger was something other than the baby Jesus,  then you've left wholly unclear what the target of Jesus's too often neglected love is and therefore have written something that is entirely absent an intelligible, recoverable from context,  or verifiable meaning.

Cue the ad hominems and red herrings that are grounded in your questionable assumption that it is impossible for you  to write poorly and that the only reason I see your lines as absurd and/or incomprehensible is that I lack poetic imagination.

tenderness amplifies love but it does come with a greater weakness than the strongholds that hold true spirituality but stand their ground
ones are pillars that help others go on
the tender souls show affectionate love but are more inclined to suffering due to the weak nature before aggression and stuff

Very dear Aaron,
I don't know how to thank you for your very valuable support. I am sure we shall be very good friends because we understand each other very well.