deepundergroundpoetry.com
THE MAN YOU'LL CERTAINLY LOVE
THE MAN YOU'LL CERTAINLY LOVE
I see in Christ a man so kind
and on the cross a thief observed,
"We've done a lot of shameful acts;
that man has none that calls for shame."
One of the thieves in despair said,
"If you're the Christ, why don't You save
Yourself and us from this harsh fate."
That's what a normal man would want.
Christ did not ask the Lord for help
to kill all those who caused Him pain.
If He'd been someone else, He would
have asked to kill those heartless foes.
He asked His Father with last breath
to forgive those who brought Him death
as they did not perceive their guilt.
That's how He shunned Himself self-blame.
BY JOSEPH ZENIEH
ALL RIGHTS RESERVED
________________________________
I see in Christ a man so kind
and on the cross a thief observed,
"We've done a lot of shameful acts;
that man has none that calls for shame."
One of the thieves in despair said,
"If you're the Christ, why don't You save
Yourself and us from this harsh fate."
That's what a normal man would want.
Christ did not ask the Lord for help
to kill all those who caused Him pain.
If He'd been someone else, He would
have asked to kill those heartless foes.
He asked His Father with last breath
to forgive those who brought Him death
as they did not perceive their guilt.
That's how He shunned Himself self-blame.
BY JOSEPH ZENIEH
ALL RIGHTS RESERVED
________________________________
Published 13th Oct 2023
All writing remains the property of the author. Don't use it for any purpose without their permission.
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This is poorly written pious pablum in which in order to support your understanding of who Jesus was and what he was like, you read into the text that stands as the source of the things you speak about in your submission (i.e., Lk. 23 32-47) things it does not say, misrepresent what the speakers in t Luke's crucifixion story are recorded as saying, and abuse the chronology of the events recorded there.
To show this, I start with your note that "you"
“... see in Christ a man so kind”
and on the cross a thief observed,
is poorly written because without some notion of to whom or in what way Jesus was "so [very?] kind", the phrase does not convey what you think you are saying -- that you see Jesus as exhibiting a type of kindness that excels the kindliness that others show and that “on the cross” is deictic and raises the question “Which cross is “the cross”“?
Moreover, what you have written here does not do what you presumably meant it to do, i.e., make the kindness of Christ toward his executioners the cause of the penitent “thief’s” saying what you claim he says. But given the fact that the and that begins your second line is paratactic, what you end up saying is that the “thief’s” saying what he says is an event that just happened to occur at the same time as you (and you alone) see what you see in Christ.
To get anywhere near saying what you thought you were saying, you needed to have written something along the following lines
“As he was being crucified
Christ showed himself quite openly
to be a man as kind as kind could be
to those who raised him to his death
and seeing this display
of something other men would take
to be wrong-headed and unjustified,
a “thief” tied up upon
a cross nearby the saviour's side
was moved to say ...
Moreover, why should we take it that the “thief” sees what you see? Where does Luke say that the “thief” – who presumably had never come into contact with Jesus before they were crucified together – saw Jesus being kind? Were the words Jesus spoke to God about forgiving his executioners "seeable"? Perhaps you are assuming that the “thief” heard Jesus asking God to forgive those who knew not what they were doing in executing him. But there is no indication on Luke’s part that what he (and no other Evangelist) says Jesus prayed was done loudly enough to have been overheard.
In any case, Luke does not say that the reason the penitent criminal says to another criminal who was crucified along with him that Jesus does not deserve to be crucified is that he sees Jesus being kind. The reason according to Luke is that this criminal knows that Jesus is not a Zealot and is not guilty of the charge made against him at Lk. 23:2 of κωλύοντα φόρους Καίσαρι διδόναι (which was something Zealots did) or of engaging in. and encouraging others other to engage in, violent acts against Rome and its collaborators.
Turning now to your claim that the penitent criminal said
"We've done a lot of shameful acts;
that man has none that calls for shame."
I have to ask: How in any way is this an accurate – or even a semi-accurate -- reproduction of what Luke reports at Lk. 23:41 the penitent criminal actually said in response to the jibes that another criminal also crucified with Jesus hurls at Jesus, namely
καὶ ἡμε ς μὲν δικαίως, ἄξια γὰρ ν ἐπράξαμεν ἀπολαμβάνομεν · ο τος δὲ οὐδὲν ἄτοπον ἔπραξεν.
As the text above shows, the penitent "thief" doesn’t confess to doing “shameful acts”, let alone a lot of them, but, given that he is described by Luke as a κακοϋργος, (another word for λῃστής - a term that Josephus uses for a social bandits and Jewish freedom fighters). Rather it’s to engaging in what many Jews in Jesus' day would have viewed as patriotic ones that Romans and the elite of Judea viewed as editions to Roman rule and merited crucifixion. And what he says about Jesus is that Jesus has done nothing that deserves the punishment that Roman officials reserve for those they regard as rebels and seditionists..
I note, too, that your claim that one of the “thieves”: said
,
"If you're the Christ, why don't You save
Yourself and us from this harsh fate."
was in despair when he hurled a jibe at Jesus
is a good example of you not only misrepresenting what Luke notes this “thief” said -- which was Οὐχὶ σὺ εὶ ὁ χριστός; σσον σεαυτὸν καὶ ἡμς., i.e. “Aren’t you the Christ? Save yourself and us.” – but of reading something into the text that is not there. Luke does not tell us anything about the emotional state this crucified criminal was in when said Οὐχὶ σὺ εί ὁ χριστός; σσον σεαυτὸν καὶ ἡμς., let alone that it was απελπισία.
I note too that your claims (1) that Jesus uttered his "forgiveness" prayer at the moment when he breathed his last breath and (2) and that what he said in that prayer was that what it was that those who brought him to his crucifixion had no knowledge of was their guilt are false.
Luke states that Jesus uttered his prayer for his father to forgive his executioners some three hours before he breathed his last breath.
What Luke states Jesus said with his last breath was
Πάτερ, εἰς χε ράς σου παρατίθεμαι τὸ πνε μά μου.
“Father, into your hands I commit my spirit”.
And according to Jesus, it was not personal guilt that his executioners had no perception of, even if guilt was something they could be engaged in “doing”. It was that in putting him to death they were rejecting the prophet-Messiah-righteous servant whom the God of Israel had sent to them. (On this, see John T. Carroll, Luke: A commentary [Westminster/John Knox Press) 466)..
So once again, you show yourself as one who writes poorly and who bends texts in the NT to say things they do not say in order to make them say what you want them to say or what you groundlessly think they do say or ought to be taken as saying.
No doubt you'll use the length of my remarks as an excuse to not respond to them and as a reason to address me with ad hominems, to not give any consideration to whether my remarks are warranted and have weight, and to not spend time to show how they are off base if you think they are.
To show this, I start with your note that "you"
“... see in Christ a man so kind”
and on the cross a thief observed,
is poorly written because without some notion of to whom or in what way Jesus was "so [very?] kind", the phrase does not convey what you think you are saying -- that you see Jesus as exhibiting a type of kindness that excels the kindliness that others show and that “on the cross” is deictic and raises the question “Which cross is “the cross”“?
Moreover, what you have written here does not do what you presumably meant it to do, i.e., make the kindness of Christ toward his executioners the cause of the penitent “thief’s” saying what you claim he says. But given the fact that the and that begins your second line is paratactic, what you end up saying is that the “thief’s” saying what he says is an event that just happened to occur at the same time as you (and you alone) see what you see in Christ.
To get anywhere near saying what you thought you were saying, you needed to have written something along the following lines
“As he was being crucified
Christ showed himself quite openly
to be a man as kind as kind could be
to those who raised him to his death
and seeing this display
of something other men would take
to be wrong-headed and unjustified,
a “thief” tied up upon
a cross nearby the saviour's side
was moved to say ...
Moreover, why should we take it that the “thief” sees what you see? Where does Luke say that the “thief” – who presumably had never come into contact with Jesus before they were crucified together – saw Jesus being kind? Were the words Jesus spoke to God about forgiving his executioners "seeable"? Perhaps you are assuming that the “thief” heard Jesus asking God to forgive those who knew not what they were doing in executing him. But there is no indication on Luke’s part that what he (and no other Evangelist) says Jesus prayed was done loudly enough to have been overheard.
In any case, Luke does not say that the reason the penitent criminal says to another criminal who was crucified along with him that Jesus does not deserve to be crucified is that he sees Jesus being kind. The reason according to Luke is that this criminal knows that Jesus is not a Zealot and is not guilty of the charge made against him at Lk. 23:2 of κωλύοντα φόρους Καίσαρι διδόναι (which was something Zealots did) or of engaging in. and encouraging others other to engage in, violent acts against Rome and its collaborators.
Turning now to your claim that the penitent criminal said
"We've done a lot of shameful acts;
that man has none that calls for shame."
I have to ask: How in any way is this an accurate – or even a semi-accurate -- reproduction of what Luke reports at Lk. 23:41 the penitent criminal actually said in response to the jibes that another criminal also crucified with Jesus hurls at Jesus, namely
καὶ ἡμε ς μὲν δικαίως, ἄξια γὰρ ν ἐπράξαμεν ἀπολαμβάνομεν · ο τος δὲ οὐδὲν ἄτοπον ἔπραξεν.
As the text above shows, the penitent "thief" doesn’t confess to doing “shameful acts”, let alone a lot of them, but, given that he is described by Luke as a κακοϋργος, (another word for λῃστής - a term that Josephus uses for a social bandits and Jewish freedom fighters). Rather it’s to engaging in what many Jews in Jesus' day would have viewed as patriotic ones that Romans and the elite of Judea viewed as editions to Roman rule and merited crucifixion. And what he says about Jesus is that Jesus has done nothing that deserves the punishment that Roman officials reserve for those they regard as rebels and seditionists..
I note, too, that your claim that one of the “thieves”: said
,
"If you're the Christ, why don't You save
Yourself and us from this harsh fate."
was in despair when he hurled a jibe at Jesus
is a good example of you not only misrepresenting what Luke notes this “thief” said -- which was Οὐχὶ σὺ εὶ ὁ χριστός; σσον σεαυτὸν καὶ ἡμς., i.e. “Aren’t you the Christ? Save yourself and us.” – but of reading something into the text that is not there. Luke does not tell us anything about the emotional state this crucified criminal was in when said Οὐχὶ σὺ εί ὁ χριστός; σσον σεαυτὸν καὶ ἡμς., let alone that it was απελπισία.
I note too that your claims (1) that Jesus uttered his "forgiveness" prayer at the moment when he breathed his last breath and (2) and that what he said in that prayer was that what it was that those who brought him to his crucifixion had no knowledge of was their guilt are false.
Luke states that Jesus uttered his prayer for his father to forgive his executioners some three hours before he breathed his last breath.
What Luke states Jesus said with his last breath was
Πάτερ, εἰς χε ράς σου παρατίθεμαι τὸ πνε μά μου.
“Father, into your hands I commit my spirit”.
And according to Jesus, it was not personal guilt that his executioners had no perception of, even if guilt was something they could be engaged in “doing”. It was that in putting him to death they were rejecting the prophet-Messiah-righteous servant whom the God of Israel had sent to them. (On this, see John T. Carroll, Luke: A commentary [Westminster/John Knox Press) 466)..
So once again, you show yourself as one who writes poorly and who bends texts in the NT to say things they do not say in order to make them say what you want them to say or what you groundlessly think they do say or ought to be taken as saying.
No doubt you'll use the length of my remarks as an excuse to not respond to them and as a reason to address me with ad hominems, to not give any consideration to whether my remarks are warranted and have weight, and to not spend time to show how they are off base if you think they are.
Very dear Baldwin,
1- Jesus actually said, Forgive them ..." whether it was with His last breath or before." Who would ask for forgiveness to those who had nailed him on the cross if he was not supremely kind?
2- The thief actually asked Him for saving Himself and them.
3- The good thief asked Him to remember him in His kingdom.
4- Jesus pitied the people and raised up their dead from death and gave sight to the blind, ...etc. Wasn't that very kind.
5- He died on the cross to save all people, among them those who killed Him in this terrible way. What do you call that? Be logical, Baldwin. I don't want you to sin just for the sake of showing your knowledge and gaining fame. Much love. J.Z.
1- Jesus actually said, Forgive them ..." whether it was with His last breath or before." Who would ask for forgiveness to those who had nailed him on the cross if he was not supremely kind?
2- The thief actually asked Him for saving Himself and them.
3- The good thief asked Him to remember him in His kingdom.
4- Jesus pitied the people and raised up their dead from death and gave sight to the blind, ...etc. Wasn't that very kind.
5- He died on the cross to save all people, among them those who killed Him in this terrible way. What do you call that? Be logical, Baldwin. I don't want you to sin just for the sake of showing your knowledge and gaining fame. Much love. J.Z.
"1- Jesus actually said, Forgive them ..." "
Yes, according to Luke, he did. But this is not under dispute.
The issue that I raised -- and to which you have not spoken -- is whether you have misrepresented what Luke clearly notes Jesus said at the moment he breathed his last. and whether your claim about when Jesus uttered his prayer to God to forgive his executioners is something that Luke substantiates.
"2. the thief actually asked Him for saving Himself and them."
Strictly speaking what Luke's reports at Lk. 23:39 that the unrepentant "thief' was doing when he said σῶσον σεαυτὸν καὶ ἡμᾶς wasn't asking Jesus to save himself and "us" from death by crucifixion but demanding that Jesus do this". and arises from the unrepentant thief's conviction that Jesus is not the Christ. In other words, according to Luke, what the unrepentant thief was doing in calling Jesus to σῶσον σεαυτὸν καὶ ἡμᾶς is mocking him as a fraud, not giving testimony that Jesus was kind.,
So your claim is off base.
"3- The good thief asked Him to remember him in His kingdom".
Again, this too is not under dispute. But the "good thief" doesn't say μνήσθητί μου ὅταν ἔλθῃς ἐν τῇ βασιλείᾳ σου because he thinks that Jesus is kind. He does it because he recognizes that Jesus is God's Christ and has been destined by God to possess royal rule.
"4- Jesus pitied the people and raised up their dead from death and gave sight to the blind, ...etc. Wasn't that very kind SIC ?]."
No one denies that it was. But the question is whether the Evangelists tell us that it was in order to display the fact that he was a man of kindness that Jesus did these things rather than, as the Evangelists testify, to provide evidence of the truth of his proclamation that ἤγγικεν ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ θεοῦ .
You seem to think that the issue I raised was whether Jesus was really the epitome of kindness.
But I was raising wholly other issues, namely
(1) whether Luke was saying that it was Jesus' kindness that caused the penitent criminal to say that Jesus was not guilty of the crime for which crucifixion was the punishment.;
(2) whether you've misrepresented the things that Luke reports the actors in his story of Jesus' crucifixion as saying;
(3) whether you have read into the text of Luke things that it does not say; and
(4) whether in the light of Jesus saying that his executioners did not know what they were doing, and therefore were committing what the Bible calls a sin of ignorance" which, unlike sins done "with a high hand", could be forgiven by God, your claim that they were not cognizant of a feeling that they should have known was theirs is what Jessays they do not know since guilt is not something that one does.
I note that what you have written in your latest message to me does not address any of these issues since it is focused on an issue I did not raise.
Yes, according to Luke, he did. But this is not under dispute.
The issue that I raised -- and to which you have not spoken -- is whether you have misrepresented what Luke clearly notes Jesus said at the moment he breathed his last. and whether your claim about when Jesus uttered his prayer to God to forgive his executioners is something that Luke substantiates.
"2. the thief actually asked Him for saving Himself and them."
Strictly speaking what Luke's reports at Lk. 23:39 that the unrepentant "thief' was doing when he said σῶσον σεαυτὸν καὶ ἡμᾶς wasn't asking Jesus to save himself and "us" from death by crucifixion but demanding that Jesus do this". and arises from the unrepentant thief's conviction that Jesus is not the Christ. In other words, according to Luke, what the unrepentant thief was doing in calling Jesus to σῶσον σεαυτὸν καὶ ἡμᾶς is mocking him as a fraud, not giving testimony that Jesus was kind.,
So your claim is off base.
"3- The good thief asked Him to remember him in His kingdom".
Again, this too is not under dispute. But the "good thief" doesn't say μνήσθητί μου ὅταν ἔλθῃς ἐν τῇ βασιλείᾳ σου because he thinks that Jesus is kind. He does it because he recognizes that Jesus is God's Christ and has been destined by God to possess royal rule.
"4- Jesus pitied the people and raised up their dead from death and gave sight to the blind, ...etc. Wasn't that very kind SIC ?]."
No one denies that it was. But the question is whether the Evangelists tell us that it was in order to display the fact that he was a man of kindness that Jesus did these things rather than, as the Evangelists testify, to provide evidence of the truth of his proclamation that ἤγγικεν ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ θεοῦ .
You seem to think that the issue I raised was whether Jesus was really the epitome of kindness.
But I was raising wholly other issues, namely
(1) whether Luke was saying that it was Jesus' kindness that caused the penitent criminal to say that Jesus was not guilty of the crime for which crucifixion was the punishment.;
(2) whether you've misrepresented the things that Luke reports the actors in his story of Jesus' crucifixion as saying;
(3) whether you have read into the text of Luke things that it does not say; and
(4) whether in the light of Jesus saying that his executioners did not know what they were doing, and therefore were committing what the Bible calls a sin of ignorance" which, unlike sins done "with a high hand", could be forgiven by God, your claim that they were not cognizant of a feeling that they should have known was theirs is what Jessays they do not know since guilt is not something that one does.
I note that what you have written in your latest message to me does not address any of these issues since it is focused on an issue I did not raise.
"Nothing is worth an answer of one word".
I wonder if you are versed well enough in logic to see that the implication of your claim above -- which should read "nothing in your message to me is worth an answer " to make sense -- is that my remarks ARE worth answers of many words!
In any case, are you denying that your message about what it is in Luke's crucifixion story that shows that Jesus was kind is focused on an issue I did not raise?
I wonder if you are versed well enough in logic to see that the implication of your claim above -- which should read "nothing in your message to me is worth an answer " to make sense -- is that my remarks ARE worth answers of many words!
In any case, are you denying that your message about what it is in Luke's crucifixion story that shows that Jesus was kind is focused on an issue I did not raise?
15th Oct 2023 2:53pm
If you want to look for additional meanings for every expression, l will find a lot of them in your writings, but l don't have a childish mind to do that, and l don't have time for such nonsense.
16th Oct 2023 10:53am
"If you want to look for additional meanings for every expression ..."
What "expressions" are you talking about?
What "expressions" are you talking about?
17th Oct 2023 11:33am
"If you want to look for additional meanings for every expression, l will find a lot of them in your writings"
Did you mean to say "If you want to see where in your messages to me you give meanings to expressions found in the scriptural texts that I work from in my submissions about Jesus that these expressions do not bear, I'll help you find them ...'?
Did you mean to say "If you want to see where in your messages to me you give meanings to expressions found in the scriptural texts that I work from in my submissions about Jesus that these expressions do not bear, I'll help you find them ...'?
No answer? I wonder if you have not replied to my question because in saying yes to it, you'd be admitting you don't know how to write well enough in English to ensure that you've clearly said what you intended to say.
