deepundergroundpoetry.com
Ha Satan
I find it curious that when examining
the wisdom of the Rabbis that’s
preserved for us within
the Mishna, Talmud, and
Tosefta, too
I nowhere find the Satan viewed
as one to be despised.
He’s never named the Evil One
or Father of all lies
or fatal enemy of “man”
or far beyond “I Am’s” control.
In fact he’s there acknowledged as
(see Bava Bathra’s testament in 16b)
a faithful servant of ha Shem,
hard burdened with a thankless but
a necessary holy task
within the divinized economy.
Nor is there any story told
within these works
of how he pridefully rebelled
against the Lord
and as a consequence
was then expelled
from any gloried realm
before God voiced his “Let there be!”
initiating the creation of the earth.
He’s still among
the bene Elohim.
So it seems your claims
about this “soul”
are things set out within
some poorly written lines
but also the theology
that is for you a norm
is ill informed.
the wisdom of the Rabbis that’s
preserved for us within
the Mishna, Talmud, and
Tosefta, too
I nowhere find the Satan viewed
as one to be despised.
He’s never named the Evil One
or Father of all lies
or fatal enemy of “man”
or far beyond “I Am’s” control.
In fact he’s there acknowledged as
(see Bava Bathra’s testament in 16b)
a faithful servant of ha Shem,
hard burdened with a thankless but
a necessary holy task
within the divinized economy.
Nor is there any story told
within these works
of how he pridefully rebelled
against the Lord
and as a consequence
was then expelled
from any gloried realm
before God voiced his “Let there be!”
initiating the creation of the earth.
He’s still among
the bene Elohim.
So it seems your claims
about this “soul”
are things set out within
some poorly written lines
but also the theology
that is for you a norm
is ill informed.
Published 12th Feb 2020
Author's Note
A claim of J-Z about the figure called Satan
All writing remains the property of the author. Don't use it for any purpose without their permission.
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comments 18
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Commenting Preference:
The author encourages honest critique.
12th Feb 2020 3:59pm
Oh. I’m fairly confident the hundreds of thousands of theologians across the globe would feel compelled to have something to say about such... 💡
12th Feb 2020 5:00pm
Perhaps. But when I ask for criticism/critique, I am requesting detailed remarks about how and where my submission does or does not show craft, not whether its "message" is true or false.
Anonymous
- Edited 12th Feb 2020 6:49pm
12th Feb 2020 6:46pm
Well, for starters and enders, it's prose that you broke up into stanzas to look like a poem. It was like sitting through a lecture.
It also looks like your copy paste went haywire; there's stanzas unnecessarily repeated.
It also looks like your copy paste went haywire; there's stanzas unnecessarily repeated.
12th Feb 2020 8:30pm
I fixed the reduplication.
But prose? Really? Despite the fact that the lines are iambic and that it contains rhyme?
But prose? Really? Despite the fact that the lines are iambic and that it contains rhyme?
Anonymous
12th Feb 2020 8:49pm
Iambic prose or iambic poetry - it still reads like an unpoetic lecture.
The rhymes aren't very noticeable and have little impact on the storytelling - creating emphasis or momentum and because there are so few instances.
The rhymes aren't very noticeable and have little impact on the storytelling - creating emphasis or momentum and because there are so few instances.
12th Feb 2020 9:00pm
Thanks for your remarks. Have you read the submission that this is in response to? I'd be curious to see what you think about how poetic it is.
Anonymous
- Edited 12th Feb 2020 9:18pm
12th Feb 2020 9:15pm
If and when I get the time, I will.
Sigh. If only I could be many places at once, like different people at the same time. Ya know?
Sigh. If only I could be many places at once, like different people at the same time. Ya know?
12th Feb 2020 9:29pm
Anonymous
12th Feb 2020 9:40pm
Well, I did already comment on it. It could use some work. Poetry like Irony when done right has context to work with and demonstrates an inherent logical consistency. That being said and given that that poem contradicts itself, I would say it is anti-poetic until the contradiction is properly dealt with.
Contradiction aside, what, if any, poetic craft do you find displayed within it? Is its language fresh. Does it avoid things like forced rhyme or gaffes in grammar, not to mention a paternalistic, preachy overly didactic tone, that would take a reader out of the piece? Are there any concrete appeals to the senses within it? Is it worded in such a way that it does what Linda Pastan (https://poets.org/poet/linda-pastan) and Walt McDonald (correctly in my view) say (https://www.valpo.edu/vpr/mcdonaldessay.html) is the job of poetry -- to make a reader see with his or her eyes shut?
Anonymous
12th Feb 2020 11:58pm
Let me preface my reply to your request by saying, Given you are very knowledgeable about and experienced in writing poetry, you already know it's poetic elements as if you wrote it yourself.
What you are really after is the ego boost that comes with hearing your poem is more poetic than JZ's.
Or perhaps you are testing my knowledge of poetry.
Both?
I tell you what - if a poet should do anything, it should be giving the reader his or her money's worth of entertainment, even if the poem is free. Otherwise you are just wasting their time.
What you are really after is the ego boost that comes with hearing your poem is more poetic than JZ's.
Or perhaps you are testing my knowledge of poetry.
Both?
I tell you what - if a poet should do anything, it should be giving the reader his or her money's worth of entertainment, even if the poem is free. Otherwise you are just wasting their time.
13th Feb 2020 00:50am
I'm not interested in hearing how mine compares with J-Z's. But I do think that J-Z needs to hear assessments of his work from someone who knows what the elements of good poetry are and not from those who don't.
Anonymous
13th Feb 2020 1:16am
Well, it just so happens there aren't any good elements of poetry. There is only good writing and not so good writing. Not so good writing is more often than not full of distractions that cause the reader to lose interest. The less distractions, the better the poem.
13th Feb 2020 1:21am
fewer, not less, distractions. But what is it within a writing that causes distractions?
Anonymous
13th Feb 2020 1:49am
ANYTHING that causes the reader to disconnect for the sake of processing the information being read as opposed to experiencing it in real time.
Punctuation abuse. Inconsistent capitalizations. Mispellings. Extraneous wording. Contradictory information. Ambiguity.
Readers are engaged by good writing.
Readers become disengaged by not so good writing.
Punctuation abuse. Inconsistent capitalizations. Mispellings. Extraneous wording. Contradictory information. Ambiguity.
Readers are engaged by good writing.
Readers become disengaged by not so good writing.
13th Feb 2020 1:31pm
BTW, I didn't say "good elements of poetry". I said "the elements of good poetry". Big difference.
Anonymous
13th Feb 2020 2:19pm
Okay. Regardless, elements of good poetry are what add up to engaging verse.
Thus good poetry is a two way street as you meet the reader halfway down the block. You give them something that keeps them engaged.
You give them enough wordplay to keep their minds occupied with associations. Not too little, so they pause in distraction as they scratch their heads over what you are saying. Not too much that it overwhelms their brains trying to keep up as they are reading in real time.
Both your poems are trying to be informative.
Yours in a lecture fashion that gives the reader little to engage their imaginations with. You are doing most of the work by explaining Satan doesn't exist for this and that reason.
JZ's poem allows us to imagine the narrator berating Satan, giving him a verbal beatdown, even tempting the Devil to retaliate ( except the contradiction suggests Satan is too lazy to bother with exacting retribution ).
Thus good poetry is a two way street as you meet the reader halfway down the block. You give them something that keeps them engaged.
You give them enough wordplay to keep their minds occupied with associations. Not too little, so they pause in distraction as they scratch their heads over what you are saying. Not too much that it overwhelms their brains trying to keep up as they are reading in real time.
Both your poems are trying to be informative.
Yours in a lecture fashion that gives the reader little to engage their imaginations with. You are doing most of the work by explaining Satan doesn't exist for this and that reason.
JZ's poem allows us to imagine the narrator berating Satan, giving him a verbal beatdown, even tempting the Devil to retaliate ( except the contradiction suggests Satan is too lazy to bother with exacting retribution ).
"JZ's poem allows us to imagine the narrator berating Satan, giving him a verbal beatdown, even tempting the Devil to retaliate ( except the contradiction suggests Satan is too lazy to bother with exacting retribution )."
Yes, but does it do this clearly and with any verbal elan?
And am I not engaging in a verbal beat down of what the narrator of J-Z's piece is claiming, showing him (and other readers) in a metrically consistent, well written piece that he doesn't know what he is talking about?
On top of this, where do you get the idea that my narrator says Satan does not exist? He's assuming Satan's existence,
but noting that there's good evidence that Satan is not the evil figure JZ says he is, let alone does what he does independently of the God of Israel's will and permission.
Yes, but does it do this clearly and with any verbal elan?
And am I not engaging in a verbal beat down of what the narrator of J-Z's piece is claiming, showing him (and other readers) in a metrically consistent, well written piece that he doesn't know what he is talking about?
On top of this, where do you get the idea that my narrator says Satan does not exist? He's assuming Satan's existence,
but noting that there's good evidence that Satan is not the evil figure JZ says he is, let alone does what he does independently of the God of Israel's will and permission.
