deepundergroundpoetry.com
(***NOT A POEM***) How I Use the Deep Underground Site - Clarifications and User Manual (***Filler/Long***)
1. Reading List. When I signed onto the site, I was adequately completely shitfaced. For the first week of site usage I was off from 60 straight days of outdoor winter labour work and was thus in a reliable state of reasonable alcoholism (roughly one drink per hour daily between the hours of 3pm to 5am). So in the formative integration of this site into my membranous neural organism, I didn’t read any rule lists or agreement forms, nor did I properly catch on to any common-sense social protocols. I became accustomed to a particular set of habits, and since then have done little to modify them.
One such example of learned behaviour is that of the Reading List. At first I assumed the Reading List was a handy storage location to put poems in for your own personal usage to read over and enjoy a couple of times for however long you wanted, but with the neat little addition that others could view this as well, and so be introduced to new poems and poets, etc. Nothing too crazy in that. But I did not realise it was looked upon, by many of those poets whose works you selected from, as an ultimate gesture of compliment toward them. And when I found out afterward that you could only store 20 poems, gradually increasing by a few every so often, it became apparent that this list was not just a temporal device of personal convenience, but more a profound statement regarding the conscientious discernment of your soul – in that the few choices of supplies and potions you’d fit in your pockets and backpack before setting off on your adventures, would ultimately show the kind of hero you’d turn out to be on the foe fighting trail. Thus being faced with this limit of encumbrance, the poems you would chose to display on your Reading List would bear the most severe weight of Value.
I agree entirely with this concept of specialness, but I’m still only using the Reading List as a temporary storage location for my own means! The selections I make ARE still based on personal liking. But inevitably, they WILL be deleted. If you were allowed to store an infinite number of poems on the Reading List, I wouldn’t hesitate in keeping all of them on it. I enjoy reading the poems on this site more than I do posting my own poems. In an average session upon the site, I’ll read upwards of 150-200 in a single sitting. At that volume of lustful consumption I end up wishing to add something like 15-20 poems to my Reading List. It’s a fast paced process. I’m glued to the screen, clamped inside headphones listening to echoey-reverbed twenty-minute avant-garde post-punk electric-guitar tracks from Germany, while scrolling through the type-fonted verses and spinning out on disjointed profile-pic clicking tangents. It’s too much of a chore and a task to have to stop, when the Reading List fills up, to have to go through the list and hem and haw right there on the spot to delete a few from the list to make more room. It’s too much of an adult remembrance of reality and structure. It’s too much of a buzz kill. So what I’ve adapted to do is just fill up the list, stop for the night, and then the next day go through the list and delete everything and start fresh. In fact the Reading List limit is probably a good thing, for sometimes if it wasn’t there I wouldn’t stop and I really would go off into fractal oblivion.
So every couple of days I will fill up my Reading List and then delete it, in order to clear up the way for further readings. I delete everything on the list, start fresh, and go until I fill it up again. Quantitatively, if I am on the site daily and spending hours and hours in my krautrock-soaked tangents, then this deletion will occur once every three days or so. And if I’m only on the site a few times per week for an hour or so, here and there, then the deletion will probably occur once every three weeks or so.
But alas, hope is not lost! When I do perform these deletions of my Reading List, I copy and paste them to an ongoing microsoft word document. I really enjoy these poems, and so far in the two-three months I’ve been here, three of the members I followed dearly have disappeared off the site forever, leaving nothing but their dismally hopeful profile suicide notes. I’m too much of a sissy to let go of the ones I delete, and I can’t have it anymore that poems sitting in my Reading List vanish because their poets have moved on to other worlds! I want to be able to read these poems at least a few more times before I am Off into the Wind myself, you know, be able to open up the book a couple of months down the road and enjoy a few lines from time to time. (Note: I make sure to copy and paste the work’s title and the user name along with each work. And as an added safeguard, the word document is labelled “Other People’s Poems from DUP – NOT MINE” so that in the event of my sudden abduction by the forces of death, those who are piling over my estate will not get confused, thinking this was a document of my own works.)
Now if anyone is all pissy with me about this course of action of mine, well they can pack their bags and head off to a bland standardized four-storey apartment building in Sweden and listen to thirty-something music from Iceland!
But ultimately, my plan for this hidden collection of poems is this: From the word document I have amassed, at the end of my one year on this site, I will go through all the poems, and there, make my crucial selections for the “Final Reading List”. I will search for each poem at their respective profiles and then re-click them back onto the DUP Reading List part of my profile. I might even post the entire list of titles on a forum post or something, maybe even get a compilation thread concept thing going with others...
So alas! Do not, dear DUP Members, take it as an insult that I have quickly deleted your work from my Reading List! My Final Reading List, when I am bound to leave this site, will be my ultimate gesture of compliment toward you.
Frick, that was a lot...
2. ***Filler***. Poems of mine which I find to be humourous and thusforth stupid, (not poetically flowed nor despondently penned) I will denote with this annotation in their title. This way, if you the reader are poised at your lofty vantage point of infinite majesty and are only wanting the pouring-forth images of supernal beauty and splendour, you will know to avoid these particular pieces, and only click onto the ones whose titles do NOT contain this annotation. There may be a few marginal pieces which I consider to be serious, such as perhaps a few angsty social commentary works, but in general I’ll try my best to be consistent and reliable in this regard.
As to why I would even bother to post preposterous poems, since I'm so hard on myself about it, is the start of many essays, which thankfully you will not have to read here. I think it’s just that I can’t stand serious, dramatic, spotlighted-on-the-stage silence. I just can’t stand uniformly flawless technical performance. I need there to be fuck-ups, I need a few glimpses of shortcoming so the audience can breathe again, a slight delay while the connections are patched up, giving the opportunity to take a chug off the bottle, crack a quick comment and get a few stray giggles out of the blackness of the auditorium. If I wanted a pure conceptual image, I would have to join a symphony and walk around Vienna in a frilly period-piece outfit...
I just have to get the bug out of my system, and this annotation method is the only way I can sleep with myself afterward. I could just make up three or four alternative profiles and have some of them post only dramatic works and others post only rubbish and crap, and since it’s definitely the thing to do, I likely will sometime soon. But at this time, this is the way it’s going to be. I’m also thinking that at the end, after my year, when I leave, I will probably delete a lot of stuff and condense things down – these “Filler” pieces will likely be the first sent to the guillotine...
Other annotations I will be using include “Long” and “Ongoing Piece”. These should be self-explanatory enough. I will have several “Ongoing Pieces” spread throughout, such as longer poems I had no desire or capability in typing out entirely in one night.
3. The “Odd Jottings” Series. The “Odd Jottings” series is an example of an Ongoing Piece. They will be spread throughout my poems. These are placed for every phase of my works and are showcased in the two formats “Serious” and “Stupid”, which by now, ought to be self-explanatory in your minds. I likely won’t be adding too much to them right away, but near the end of my tenure here, I may go back and start filling them up again.
A Summary of Jim Nut Roarin’s Poetic Phases
(In order of how they were posted onto the site, plus time-frame when they occurred in his actual bioillogical space-time line)
1. The Green Notebook (2012-present)
2. The Port Hopeless Era (2009-2012)
3. The World of Work (Hardships and Transitions) (2003-2009)
4. The Student Years (Aimless Ethereal Floatings) (1999-2003)
5. Mumble Jumble Jim and the Porcupine (Yukon Road Trip) (1998)
6. The Black Book Period (1996-1998)
7. Early Highschool Textbook Doodles (1994-1996)
4. Offensive Content. These works won’t be put under the EXTREME CONTENT banner due to their adult nature of violence, gore and bondage techniques, but more so for anti-social, politically-incorrect and religiously-blasphemous reasons.
5. Comments and Private Messaging. Most of the time I'm on the site, I'm piss-faced drunk. The other half of the time I am whooped up on immoderate quantities of caffeine, glucose and high-fructose corn-syrup products. And any other half of the time I’m coming down from a 10-12hour physical labour work shift that was spent in either minus forty degree winds or plus forty heat, and I can barely move my muscle, mind and eyelids. In all cases I’ve been collapsed into a headphone-space of continuous music selections for several hours.
So I’m pretty much driftingly out of it, when I’m making a comment. So it’s totally up to you to read the token comment I leave at the bottom of postings! And as for the comments I might leave on your poems while I’m in these states, if you think my comment is totally off-the-rocker inappropriate to be attached to your poem, just simply remove it. I will not take offense! In almost all honesties, I won’t ever realise that you’ve done so (I almost always forget to check the Reply feature on the My Comments page during site usage sessions).
To tell the truth, I definitely hold back quite a bit, and don't comment on people's works as much as I ought to. Much of it has to do with plain mortal exhaustion in trying to come up with something more high-brow than just "Nice read!". But mostly it has to do with the damned profile picture I had to use for this site! I just feel it rather impolite then, to have that picture show up under someone's beautiful and serious verse, especially if no one else has commented yet! That damned profile pic really gets me stuck in a lot of corners...
Also too, when I post a poem, I usually remain on the site for another two to six hours, continuing on my foragings through the thickets of word. I don’t know if some members are sitting there gazing at their screens after they post their poems anxious for every kilobyte of attention to flow their way, perhaps many human beings are like that these days, but I’m not. Once posted, and after I’ve posted my accompanying comment, I have completely left my own Profile section and have wandered off afar, hunting through the poems and forums on other member’s lands. So if you see a new posting of mine and are just itching to comment on it, then go ahead – I will not notice it and will not necessarily reply to it (nor will it be the case that if I post a poem, then you comment on it, then I log off – it will not mean that I have been offended and have stormed off in an unpolite huff, nothing so adolescent as that).
Now I might check in on a new posting of mine from time to time though, but if I do reply to the comment, or then go explore onto your poems and comment there while you’re still online, I will not at all be instigating some form of instant-messaging chat, nothing so facebook as that. In the remote case that I send you a horrendously lengthy Private Message, I will try to do so when you are offline. But please be advised, again, that if you send me a PM while I am online, and then I log off, it will most likely be the result of me finally finishing my nightly session, completely oblivious that someone has intruded upon my Inbox section – and not, as explained earlier, be a result of me being offended by your message and going off in a huff. Fuck this internet-protocol society thing is complicated!
Basically the only facebooking thing I do on this site is rampantly click on the “Like” button for poems and the “Thumb Up” button for comments. Probably over 50% of my “Thumb Ups” go to the comments made by DU members PoetSpeak and John_Fedeller. Them lads are fricking rad...
6. Forums and Competitions. Indeed one could argue that the Forums and Competitions is the whole point of the DU Community. So it is with much regret that I will not be participating in these compelling components of the DU site. If I somehow made money and didn't have to work almost everyday anymore, or was put into some kind of suitable permanent social-assistance set-up, and if I finished all of my other core novels, essays and poetic works, and if I had the energy and motivation to live to my forties, then I would have the time to take part in the Forums and Competitions. There are so many neat competitions out there, every day I’m so pissed off, I see something so awesome with lots of cool entries, I just don’t have the flow to conjure something up on the spot. I never have been an improv kind of guy, my creativity flows when it flows, I can never force it for a quick deadline. I talk more about this fatal flaw of mine in the “Further Introductory Blurb” posting found beside this posting. I do have 3 particular forum discussion topics, of conceptual magnitude, which I will bring forward at some point, but I haven’t written them down yet (probably end up being in the 1-2 page range essay format – these Issues are of graven importance, dammit!).
I only have enough time and energy to type up some old poems and place them here, plus a few comments for good laugh. Even at that level of involvement, I am faltering. Most of all, I’m here on the site to kick back, relax and read some good shit. Last thing I’d want to do is actually think..!
Actually, it’s probably best that I don’t enter too many forum discussions or any competitions... less attention is key to my survival here. The really last thing I’d want is for TOO many people to be reading my works, and comments, especially if I start bantering away on politics and contrarian sustainable industrial development – someone would rat me out to the good Web Mistress for sure, and it’d all be over...
7. Audio Works. Apart from the thousands of pages of poetry and essay writings that have consumed much of my adult reproductive lifespan, I have recorded hundreds of hours of various semi-coherent sounds and songs on the electric and acoustic guitars. I will be posting some of these rudimentary song and poetry recordings on both soundcloud.com and youtube.com. These works will be accompanied with the typed wordings posted here on DUP. I won’t dare put them up on the Spoken Word section on the Home Page quite yet, but I could possibly be egged on to kick out the camera and make a cameo appearance some day...
Meanwhile the links for soundcloud and youtube are here:
Soundcloud @:
https://soundcloud.com/jim-nut-roarin
Youtube @:
http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGYOSJ7qzGOniGWw2tZtyVw
One such example of learned behaviour is that of the Reading List. At first I assumed the Reading List was a handy storage location to put poems in for your own personal usage to read over and enjoy a couple of times for however long you wanted, but with the neat little addition that others could view this as well, and so be introduced to new poems and poets, etc. Nothing too crazy in that. But I did not realise it was looked upon, by many of those poets whose works you selected from, as an ultimate gesture of compliment toward them. And when I found out afterward that you could only store 20 poems, gradually increasing by a few every so often, it became apparent that this list was not just a temporal device of personal convenience, but more a profound statement regarding the conscientious discernment of your soul – in that the few choices of supplies and potions you’d fit in your pockets and backpack before setting off on your adventures, would ultimately show the kind of hero you’d turn out to be on the foe fighting trail. Thus being faced with this limit of encumbrance, the poems you would chose to display on your Reading List would bear the most severe weight of Value.
I agree entirely with this concept of specialness, but I’m still only using the Reading List as a temporary storage location for my own means! The selections I make ARE still based on personal liking. But inevitably, they WILL be deleted. If you were allowed to store an infinite number of poems on the Reading List, I wouldn’t hesitate in keeping all of them on it. I enjoy reading the poems on this site more than I do posting my own poems. In an average session upon the site, I’ll read upwards of 150-200 in a single sitting. At that volume of lustful consumption I end up wishing to add something like 15-20 poems to my Reading List. It’s a fast paced process. I’m glued to the screen, clamped inside headphones listening to echoey-reverbed twenty-minute avant-garde post-punk electric-guitar tracks from Germany, while scrolling through the type-fonted verses and spinning out on disjointed profile-pic clicking tangents. It’s too much of a chore and a task to have to stop, when the Reading List fills up, to have to go through the list and hem and haw right there on the spot to delete a few from the list to make more room. It’s too much of an adult remembrance of reality and structure. It’s too much of a buzz kill. So what I’ve adapted to do is just fill up the list, stop for the night, and then the next day go through the list and delete everything and start fresh. In fact the Reading List limit is probably a good thing, for sometimes if it wasn’t there I wouldn’t stop and I really would go off into fractal oblivion.
So every couple of days I will fill up my Reading List and then delete it, in order to clear up the way for further readings. I delete everything on the list, start fresh, and go until I fill it up again. Quantitatively, if I am on the site daily and spending hours and hours in my krautrock-soaked tangents, then this deletion will occur once every three days or so. And if I’m only on the site a few times per week for an hour or so, here and there, then the deletion will probably occur once every three weeks or so.
But alas, hope is not lost! When I do perform these deletions of my Reading List, I copy and paste them to an ongoing microsoft word document. I really enjoy these poems, and so far in the two-three months I’ve been here, three of the members I followed dearly have disappeared off the site forever, leaving nothing but their dismally hopeful profile suicide notes. I’m too much of a sissy to let go of the ones I delete, and I can’t have it anymore that poems sitting in my Reading List vanish because their poets have moved on to other worlds! I want to be able to read these poems at least a few more times before I am Off into the Wind myself, you know, be able to open up the book a couple of months down the road and enjoy a few lines from time to time. (Note: I make sure to copy and paste the work’s title and the user name along with each work. And as an added safeguard, the word document is labelled “Other People’s Poems from DUP – NOT MINE” so that in the event of my sudden abduction by the forces of death, those who are piling over my estate will not get confused, thinking this was a document of my own works.)
Now if anyone is all pissy with me about this course of action of mine, well they can pack their bags and head off to a bland standardized four-storey apartment building in Sweden and listen to thirty-something music from Iceland!
But ultimately, my plan for this hidden collection of poems is this: From the word document I have amassed, at the end of my one year on this site, I will go through all the poems, and there, make my crucial selections for the “Final Reading List”. I will search for each poem at their respective profiles and then re-click them back onto the DUP Reading List part of my profile. I might even post the entire list of titles on a forum post or something, maybe even get a compilation thread concept thing going with others...
So alas! Do not, dear DUP Members, take it as an insult that I have quickly deleted your work from my Reading List! My Final Reading List, when I am bound to leave this site, will be my ultimate gesture of compliment toward you.
Frick, that was a lot...
2. ***Filler***. Poems of mine which I find to be humourous and thusforth stupid, (not poetically flowed nor despondently penned) I will denote with this annotation in their title. This way, if you the reader are poised at your lofty vantage point of infinite majesty and are only wanting the pouring-forth images of supernal beauty and splendour, you will know to avoid these particular pieces, and only click onto the ones whose titles do NOT contain this annotation. There may be a few marginal pieces which I consider to be serious, such as perhaps a few angsty social commentary works, but in general I’ll try my best to be consistent and reliable in this regard.
As to why I would even bother to post preposterous poems, since I'm so hard on myself about it, is the start of many essays, which thankfully you will not have to read here. I think it’s just that I can’t stand serious, dramatic, spotlighted-on-the-stage silence. I just can’t stand uniformly flawless technical performance. I need there to be fuck-ups, I need a few glimpses of shortcoming so the audience can breathe again, a slight delay while the connections are patched up, giving the opportunity to take a chug off the bottle, crack a quick comment and get a few stray giggles out of the blackness of the auditorium. If I wanted a pure conceptual image, I would have to join a symphony and walk around Vienna in a frilly period-piece outfit...
I just have to get the bug out of my system, and this annotation method is the only way I can sleep with myself afterward. I could just make up three or four alternative profiles and have some of them post only dramatic works and others post only rubbish and crap, and since it’s definitely the thing to do, I likely will sometime soon. But at this time, this is the way it’s going to be. I’m also thinking that at the end, after my year, when I leave, I will probably delete a lot of stuff and condense things down – these “Filler” pieces will likely be the first sent to the guillotine...
Other annotations I will be using include “Long” and “Ongoing Piece”. These should be self-explanatory enough. I will have several “Ongoing Pieces” spread throughout, such as longer poems I had no desire or capability in typing out entirely in one night.
3. The “Odd Jottings” Series. The “Odd Jottings” series is an example of an Ongoing Piece. They will be spread throughout my poems. These are placed for every phase of my works and are showcased in the two formats “Serious” and “Stupid”, which by now, ought to be self-explanatory in your minds. I likely won’t be adding too much to them right away, but near the end of my tenure here, I may go back and start filling them up again.
A Summary of Jim Nut Roarin’s Poetic Phases
(In order of how they were posted onto the site, plus time-frame when they occurred in his actual bioillogical space-time line)
1. The Green Notebook (2012-present)
2. The Port Hopeless Era (2009-2012)
3. The World of Work (Hardships and Transitions) (2003-2009)
4. The Student Years (Aimless Ethereal Floatings) (1999-2003)
5. Mumble Jumble Jim and the Porcupine (Yukon Road Trip) (1998)
6. The Black Book Period (1996-1998)
7. Early Highschool Textbook Doodles (1994-1996)
4. Offensive Content. These works won’t be put under the EXTREME CONTENT banner due to their adult nature of violence, gore and bondage techniques, but more so for anti-social, politically-incorrect and religiously-blasphemous reasons.
5. Comments and Private Messaging. Most of the time I'm on the site, I'm piss-faced drunk. The other half of the time I am whooped up on immoderate quantities of caffeine, glucose and high-fructose corn-syrup products. And any other half of the time I’m coming down from a 10-12hour physical labour work shift that was spent in either minus forty degree winds or plus forty heat, and I can barely move my muscle, mind and eyelids. In all cases I’ve been collapsed into a headphone-space of continuous music selections for several hours.
So I’m pretty much driftingly out of it, when I’m making a comment. So it’s totally up to you to read the token comment I leave at the bottom of postings! And as for the comments I might leave on your poems while I’m in these states, if you think my comment is totally off-the-rocker inappropriate to be attached to your poem, just simply remove it. I will not take offense! In almost all honesties, I won’t ever realise that you’ve done so (I almost always forget to check the Reply feature on the My Comments page during site usage sessions).
To tell the truth, I definitely hold back quite a bit, and don't comment on people's works as much as I ought to. Much of it has to do with plain mortal exhaustion in trying to come up with something more high-brow than just "Nice read!". But mostly it has to do with the damned profile picture I had to use for this site! I just feel it rather impolite then, to have that picture show up under someone's beautiful and serious verse, especially if no one else has commented yet! That damned profile pic really gets me stuck in a lot of corners...
Also too, when I post a poem, I usually remain on the site for another two to six hours, continuing on my foragings through the thickets of word. I don’t know if some members are sitting there gazing at their screens after they post their poems anxious for every kilobyte of attention to flow their way, perhaps many human beings are like that these days, but I’m not. Once posted, and after I’ve posted my accompanying comment, I have completely left my own Profile section and have wandered off afar, hunting through the poems and forums on other member’s lands. So if you see a new posting of mine and are just itching to comment on it, then go ahead – I will not notice it and will not necessarily reply to it (nor will it be the case that if I post a poem, then you comment on it, then I log off – it will not mean that I have been offended and have stormed off in an unpolite huff, nothing so adolescent as that).
Now I might check in on a new posting of mine from time to time though, but if I do reply to the comment, or then go explore onto your poems and comment there while you’re still online, I will not at all be instigating some form of instant-messaging chat, nothing so facebook as that. In the remote case that I send you a horrendously lengthy Private Message, I will try to do so when you are offline. But please be advised, again, that if you send me a PM while I am online, and then I log off, it will most likely be the result of me finally finishing my nightly session, completely oblivious that someone has intruded upon my Inbox section – and not, as explained earlier, be a result of me being offended by your message and going off in a huff. Fuck this internet-protocol society thing is complicated!
Basically the only facebooking thing I do on this site is rampantly click on the “Like” button for poems and the “Thumb Up” button for comments. Probably over 50% of my “Thumb Ups” go to the comments made by DU members PoetSpeak and John_Fedeller. Them lads are fricking rad...
6. Forums and Competitions. Indeed one could argue that the Forums and Competitions is the whole point of the DU Community. So it is with much regret that I will not be participating in these compelling components of the DU site. If I somehow made money and didn't have to work almost everyday anymore, or was put into some kind of suitable permanent social-assistance set-up, and if I finished all of my other core novels, essays and poetic works, and if I had the energy and motivation to live to my forties, then I would have the time to take part in the Forums and Competitions. There are so many neat competitions out there, every day I’m so pissed off, I see something so awesome with lots of cool entries, I just don’t have the flow to conjure something up on the spot. I never have been an improv kind of guy, my creativity flows when it flows, I can never force it for a quick deadline. I talk more about this fatal flaw of mine in the “Further Introductory Blurb” posting found beside this posting. I do have 3 particular forum discussion topics, of conceptual magnitude, which I will bring forward at some point, but I haven’t written them down yet (probably end up being in the 1-2 page range essay format – these Issues are of graven importance, dammit!).
I only have enough time and energy to type up some old poems and place them here, plus a few comments for good laugh. Even at that level of involvement, I am faltering. Most of all, I’m here on the site to kick back, relax and read some good shit. Last thing I’d want to do is actually think..!
Actually, it’s probably best that I don’t enter too many forum discussions or any competitions... less attention is key to my survival here. The really last thing I’d want is for TOO many people to be reading my works, and comments, especially if I start bantering away on politics and contrarian sustainable industrial development – someone would rat me out to the good Web Mistress for sure, and it’d all be over...
7. Audio Works. Apart from the thousands of pages of poetry and essay writings that have consumed much of my adult reproductive lifespan, I have recorded hundreds of hours of various semi-coherent sounds and songs on the electric and acoustic guitars. I will be posting some of these rudimentary song and poetry recordings on both soundcloud.com and youtube.com. These works will be accompanied with the typed wordings posted here on DUP. I won’t dare put them up on the Spoken Word section on the Home Page quite yet, but I could possibly be egged on to kick out the camera and make a cameo appearance some day...
Meanwhile the links for soundcloud and youtube are here:
Soundcloud @:
https://soundcloud.com/jim-nut-roarin
Youtube @:
http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGYOSJ7qzGOniGWw2tZtyVw
Published 5th Jul 2014
| Edited 11th Jul 2014
All writing remains the property of the author. Don't use it for any purpose without their permission.
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21st Sep 2024 1:44pm
Today tomorrow never came and yesterday stood still
The lighting dimmed the chapter closed the way it always will
The sharing of a golden star was only in a dream
The warming waves were left behind the beautiness not seen
So many times the flame is lit but doused before the touch
The natural need is held so close to feel is just too much
The smile is only half as bright as really it should be
The heart has everything to lose but nothing else to see
Johnnie
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