deepundergroundpoetry.com
Your evaluation, please
Those here who read the verse
I post to DUP,
please tell me if you do agree
with statements often made
by old J-Z
that it's a fact
that what I write’s not poetry
but prose.
Will you suppose and mark it to be true
that his so fulsome designation of my work
is sound,
land that its ground's
an educated, well-trained sense
and knowledge of
just what it is
that does and does not lie within
the boundaries of prosody?
Or on the contrary,
is what he so explicitly opines
a view that rises from
a crippled understanding of
what can and cannot be
the properties of poesy
and that his " beliefs
about the nature of my "writ"
has no veracity?
Please tell me what you think
of it.
I post to DUP,
please tell me if you do agree
with statements often made
by old J-Z
that it's a fact
that what I write’s not poetry
but prose.
Will you suppose and mark it to be true
that his so fulsome designation of my work
is sound,
land that its ground's
an educated, well-trained sense
and knowledge of
just what it is
that does and does not lie within
the boundaries of prosody?
Or on the contrary,
is what he so explicitly opines
a view that rises from
a crippled understanding of
what can and cannot be
the properties of poesy
and that his " beliefs
about the nature of my "writ"
has no veracity?
Please tell me what you think
of it.
Published 14th Feb 2023
Author's Note
What inspired this piece is what J-Z says about my submissions, namely,
"Sorry, Baldwin, but I consider your writing is [sic to be] prose, [sic] and not poetry ... Again, lam [sic] so sorry, Baldwin, but this is what l really believe."
"Sorry, Baldwin, but I consider your writing is [sic to be] prose, [sic] and not poetry ... Again, lam [sic] so sorry, Baldwin, but this is what l really believe."
All writing remains the property of the author. Don't use it for any purpose without their permission.
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Commenting Preference:
The author encourages honest critique.
14th Feb 2023 10:21pm
15th Feb 2023 1:18am
Two observations...
1. Is prose intrinsically worse than poetry?
2. Why do you care what he thinks?
1. Is prose intrinsically worse than poetry?
2. Why do you care what he thinks?
15th Feb 2023 2:53am
The issue isn't which is worse, but whether anyone truly thinks that J-Z knows what he is talking about when he declares that something is not poetry.
15th Feb 2023 3:15am
Do you have someone else in mind as an established authority on poetics that we might compare his opinions with?
Who is the ultimate poetry cop?
Who is the ultimate poetry cop?
I am asking readers of my submissions to tell me whether they think J-Z's claim about what my submissions are is correct. Whether they are established authorities on matters poetical is irrelevant.
So in your opinion, is J-Z correct when he says that they are not poetry?
So in your opinion, is J-Z correct when he says that they are not poetry?
15th Feb 2023 12:28pm
If you AND Mister J-Z are wanting value judgements in a semantic quagmire, then what you both have is a recipe for perpetual contention.
I have consulted three lexical sources for the definition of poetry.
1. The Free Dictionary (online) By Farlex, whose primary definition includes "meter, metaphor, and rhyme". The definition is more extensive than that, so feel free to read the rest on your own initiative.
2. My old 1937 Oxford Universal English Dictionary which says that poetry is..."1. The art or work of the poet", followed up with..."a. Composition in verse or metrical language." and..."b. The product of this art as a form of literature".
3. My recently acquired 2014 copy of The Princeton University Press Dictionary of Untranslatables, which states that..."The English word 'poetry' derives, via Latin, from the Greek poiesis'" or "poiein" (to make, produce)..."referring to the production of an object , as distinguished from praxis".
Further study regarding praxis seemingly indicates that the Greeks, and I'm pretty sure Shakespeare, were aware of the differences betwixt written and spoken (and why would they not know?), But if the original Greek word meant to make or produce, and nothing more specific than that, then I think that definition is rather broadly inclusive, at least enough to cover anybody here at DUP.
Surely there are more lexical resources to explore in order to flesh out the definition to a greater extent, should you or Mister J-Z choose to do so.
I will only add that I have met, online, some pretty conservative "poets" who were what I call "meter Nazis". I mention this because while I think of meter as a kind of standard or guideline to be aware of as one composes, I also think that a too strict slavishness to it stifles the creative process.
Balance is the key to attractive linguistic ratio and proportion.
I have consulted three lexical sources for the definition of poetry.
1. The Free Dictionary (online) By Farlex, whose primary definition includes "meter, metaphor, and rhyme". The definition is more extensive than that, so feel free to read the rest on your own initiative.
2. My old 1937 Oxford Universal English Dictionary which says that poetry is..."1. The art or work of the poet", followed up with..."a. Composition in verse or metrical language." and..."b. The product of this art as a form of literature".
3. My recently acquired 2014 copy of The Princeton University Press Dictionary of Untranslatables, which states that..."The English word 'poetry' derives, via Latin, from the Greek poiesis'" or "poiein" (to make, produce)..."referring to the production of an object , as distinguished from praxis".
Further study regarding praxis seemingly indicates that the Greeks, and I'm pretty sure Shakespeare, were aware of the differences betwixt written and spoken (and why would they not know?), But if the original Greek word meant to make or produce, and nothing more specific than that, then I think that definition is rather broadly inclusive, at least enough to cover anybody here at DUP.
Surely there are more lexical resources to explore in order to flesh out the definition to a greater extent, should you or Mister J-Z choose to do so.
I will only add that I have met, online, some pretty conservative "poets" who were what I call "meter Nazis". I mention this because while I think of meter as a kind of standard or guideline to be aware of as one composes, I also think that a too strict slavishness to it stifles the creative process.
Balance is the key to attractive linguistic ratio and proportion.
15th Feb 2023 12:52pm
I didn't ask to be provided with definitions of poetry or your thoughts on what stifles the creative process.
I asked whether you -- a reader of my submissions -- thought J-Z was correct when he said my submissions were not poetry, especially when evaluated in the light of his criteria of what a writing has to have in order to be labeled poetry.
Do you think he is correct in saying what he said?
.
I asked whether you -- a reader of my submissions -- thought J-Z was correct when he said my submissions were not poetry, especially when evaluated in the light of his criteria of what a writing has to have in order to be labeled poetry.
Do you think he is correct in saying what he said?
.
15th Feb 2023 1:14pm
I think your poems qualify, by some definitions at least, as poetry, and I also implore you to consider Crimsin's suggestion of obsession because...as I first inquired...
why do you care what he thinks?
I will wager that dictionary editors have greater experience with the qualifiers of poetics than Mister J-Z.
why do you care what he thinks?
I will wager that dictionary editors have greater experience with the qualifiers of poetics than Mister J-Z.
"I think your poems qualify, by some definitions at least, as poetry, "
Thank you.
"and I also implore you to consider Crimsin's suggestion of obsession because...as I first inquired...
why do you care what he thinks?"
That's a good question. But he has made it his job to state publically that I know nothing about poetry. So it seems to me, that responding publically to his derogatory claims is warranted.
"I will wager that dictionary editors have greater experience with the qualifiers of poetics than Mister J-Z."
Greater experience with a word (such as an adjective) or word group that limits or modifies the meaning of another word or greater expertIse in the matter of what the characteristics of poetry and prose are?
In any case, yes, I'll also wager that J-Z 's knowledge of what does and does not qualify as poetry is not as great as he, however implicitly, claims it is, and certainly far less than that possessed by the authors of the entries on the word that appear in dictionaries and such works as _The New Princeton Encyclopedia of Poetry and Poetics_ or _The Encyclopedia Britannica_ (https://www.britannica.com/art/poetry) or in the online guide to Literary Terms (https://literaryterms.net/).
In fact, if one were to judge whether the imageless, grammar-gaffed, dully phrased, prosaic, limited in vocabulary, poorly punctuated, misworded, forced rhyme, and solecism filled writings that J_Z submits to DUP by what these works note as what qualifies a writing as poetry, then they would be given a thumbs down.
It's no wonder that J-Z refuses to submit his "poems" to moderated critical poetry sites like PFFA for evaluation of their poetical felicity. He knows that they would not be well received.
Thank you.
"and I also implore you to consider Crimsin's suggestion of obsession because...as I first inquired...
why do you care what he thinks?"
That's a good question. But he has made it his job to state publically that I know nothing about poetry. So it seems to me, that responding publically to his derogatory claims is warranted.
"I will wager that dictionary editors have greater experience with the qualifiers of poetics than Mister J-Z."
Greater experience with a word (such as an adjective) or word group that limits or modifies the meaning of another word or greater expertIse in the matter of what the characteristics of poetry and prose are?
In any case, yes, I'll also wager that J-Z 's knowledge of what does and does not qualify as poetry is not as great as he, however implicitly, claims it is, and certainly far less than that possessed by the authors of the entries on the word that appear in dictionaries and such works as _The New Princeton Encyclopedia of Poetry and Poetics_ or _The Encyclopedia Britannica_ (https://www.britannica.com/art/poetry) or in the online guide to Literary Terms (https://literaryterms.net/).
In fact, if one were to judge whether the imageless, grammar-gaffed, dully phrased, prosaic, limited in vocabulary, poorly punctuated, misworded, forced rhyme, and solecism filled writings that J_Z submits to DUP by what these works note as what qualifies a writing as poetry, then they would be given a thumbs down.
It's no wonder that J-Z refuses to submit his "poems" to moderated critical poetry sites like PFFA for evaluation of their poetical felicity. He knows that they would not be well received.
15th Feb 2023 3:24pm
Fair enough!
I like the more established poetic forms if they have the potential for exhibiting felicity, as you say, but like the constructions of a genius architect, there is also potential for bollixing up the implementation of the plan.
Probably the worst thing that rhymers do is get so hung up on the rhyme that they fail to do anything interesting with the rest of the line. Best to think of rhyme as icing on a cake, but the cake is still the bulk of the poem.
And you're right, lack of punctuation is certainly an ongoing problem with most of what I see in the free verse universe, and I include stanza arrangement as belonging to the punctuation category. Inexplicable line breaks abound, don't they?
I am unfamiliar with the PFFA. I will have to investigate.
I like the more established poetic forms if they have the potential for exhibiting felicity, as you say, but like the constructions of a genius architect, there is also potential for bollixing up the implementation of the plan.
Probably the worst thing that rhymers do is get so hung up on the rhyme that they fail to do anything interesting with the rest of the line. Best to think of rhyme as icing on a cake, but the cake is still the bulk of the poem.
And you're right, lack of punctuation is certainly an ongoing problem with most of what I see in the free verse universe, and I include stanza arrangement as belonging to the punctuation category. Inexplicable line breaks abound, don't they?
I am unfamiliar with the PFFA. I will have to investigate.
15th Feb 2023 3:40pm
"I am unfamiliar with the PFFA. I will have to investigate. "
http://www.everypoet.org/pffa/
http://www.everypoet.org/pffa/
15th Feb 2023 3:41pm
15th Feb 2023 3:00am
hello Baldwin you see a little obsessed by Joseph just my opinion be it poetry or pose obsession is obsession...
"hello Baldwin you see[m] a little obsessed by [with] Joseph just my opinion be it poetry or p[r]ose obsession is obsession..."
What does this have to do with whether you think J-Z's claim about the nature of my submissions is correct? Whether or not I am obsessed with J-Z has nothing to do with whether you think his evaluation of the nature of my submissions is correct. Do my submissions lack the literary and linguistic characteristics generally regarded as essential to poetry? Surely you have an opinion on this matter.
What does this have to do with whether you think J-Z's claim about the nature of my submissions is correct? Whether or not I am obsessed with J-Z has nothing to do with whether you think his evaluation of the nature of my submissions is correct. Do my submissions lack the literary and linguistic characteristics generally regarded as essential to poetry? Surely you have an opinion on this matter.
