deepundergroundpoetry.com
WOMEN AND REAL LOVE
WOMEN AND REAL LOVE
Women are so great and precious
to my feelings and my notions.
They create in me some passion
which can make the world my heaven.
But my love is not so selfish.
I behold in them my mother,
sister, wife and serious people
as my love is deep and lasting.
They're my constant, strong emotions
and l care for their own future,
not just means to get my pleasure;
then l leave them apt to suffer.
I perceive in them their weakness
is an element of power
which enslaves my heart and fondness,
not a cause to reap their flowers.
BY JOSEPH ZENIEH
ALL RIGHTS RESERVED
____________________________________
.
Women are so great and precious
to my feelings and my notions.
They create in me some passion
which can make the world my heaven.
But my love is not so selfish.
I behold in them my mother,
sister, wife and serious people
as my love is deep and lasting.
They're my constant, strong emotions
and l care for their own future,
not just means to get my pleasure;
then l leave them apt to suffer.
I perceive in them their weakness
is an element of power
which enslaves my heart and fondness,
not a cause to reap their flowers.
BY JOSEPH ZENIEH
ALL RIGHTS RESERVED
____________________________________
.
Published 27th Sep 2021
All writing remains the property of the author. Don't use it for any purpose without their permission.
likes 1
reading list entries 1
comments 12
reads 246
Commenting Preference:
The author encourages honest critique.
28th Sep 2021 3:53am
HIs mother is extremely important to a man's future understanding of woman, in spite of the enormous biological and psychological differences between the 2.
Interesting point about how their weakness becomes and element of passion to them.
Enjoyed!
Interesting point about how their weakness becomes and element of passion to them.
Enjoyed!
Can you tell me if you think that comments about the apparent message of this submission really give J-Z what he (falsely) says he wants from readers, namely, honest **critique** of **the way** he has set out message about "women and real love" (i.e., a thoughtful and substantiated analysis of whether or not, and how it does or does not, display the literary and linguistic characteristics that are generally acknowledged as something a writing has to have to be considered not only poetry, but good poetry)?**
I, for one, do NOT think they do so. So I'd be pleased if you could tell me why you think they do if you think they do.
**cri·tique
noun
a detailed analysis and assessment of something
I, for one, do NOT think they do so. So I'd be pleased if you could tell me why you think they do if you think they do.
**cri·tique
noun
a detailed analysis and assessment of something
28th Sep 2021 9:43am
Very dear Mark,
Thank you very much for reading and enjoying my poem. I see very close understanding between our mentalities.
Thank you very much for reading and enjoying my poem. I see very close understanding between our mentalities.
28th Sep 2021 3:55pm
Very dear SS,
Thank you very much for your read, like, and choice of my poem to your reading list. Indeed it is very kind of you to like my poetry.
Thank you very much for your read, like, and choice of my poem to your reading list. Indeed it is very kind of you to like my poetry.
28th Sep 2021 3:59pm
Very dear Baldwin,
Thank you very much for your great interest in my poetry. Your interest has helped me a lot. Please don't ask me how. Anyhow, you are my colleague, Baldwin.
Thank you very much for your great interest in my poetry. Your interest has helped me a lot. Please don't ask me how. Anyhow, you are my colleague, Baldwin.
28th Sep 2021 4:36pm
Why shouldn't I ask you how my "interest" has helped you, especially since I see no evidence that you have taken my critical remarks about the declaratory way you write into account and worked toward incorporating them into your (continuing) practice of setting things out upon the page that are grammar gaffed, solecistic, stylistically faulty, conceptually muddled, factually misinformed, all tell no show, musicality bereft, imageless, didactic, pontificating, pieces?
Another muddled piece:
"Women are so great and precious
to my feelings and my notions."
The use of the comparative "so great" demands that you say something about what women are so great as or in comparison with or what it is that they are so great in being or doing.
"They create in me some passion
which can make the world my heaven."
If this is your comparison, then you would have been better off at saying "women are great" at creating passion in you. The use of "so" with "great" creates the expectation that you are going to say "in comparison with X".
More importantly, your word choice here makes you say that the passion that women create in you is only capable of making the world your heaven. It does not actually do so. That's what your use of "can" implies.
"But my love is not so selfish."
You haven't spoken of your love before, so the idea that it is something that arises from selfishness is unrelated to anything said in your first verse. And it is hardly clear what it is that your love is not so selfish as?
You would have made far more sense if you had written
I love all kinds of women, not for selfish reasons,
but because
it is the loving thing to do.
"I behold in them my mother,
sister, wife and serious people
as my love is deep and lasting."
Your syntax makes you say (incorrectly, by the way, given that the antecedent of "them" is the singular noun "passion" that you behold the passion that can (but apparently does not) make the world your heaven IN your mother and sisters and wife, etc., and therefore see them, and not you, as full of passion.
"They're my constant, strong emotions"
Here you say that your mother and your sister and your wife are emotions that you possess.
"and l care for their own future,"
And here you say that you care for the future of emotions.
"not just[a/the] means to get my pleasure;"
Did you mean to say that you do not regard women as just a means for you to achieve pleasure. If you did, you haven't actually, let alone with any felicity, said so.
"then l leave them apt to suffer".
The idea that when you treat women as if they existed, or were to be regarded as nothing more than a means, to give you pleasure leaves women having a tendency to suffer is something that is unevidenced and hardly grounded in the experience of all women.
More importantly, what you actually end up saying here is that after you care for "their" future, you then leave them with the tendency to suffer.
"I perceive in them their weakness
is an element of power
which enslaves my heart and fondness,
[and is] not a cause to reap their flowers."
This last line (with its ellipsis) looks suspiciously like you sacrificed sense to get a rhyme. And if "reap their flowers" is meant to be taken as a metaphor for some sexual act, you are stating that your mother's weakness is not to be seen as something you might otherwise be inclined, given her weakness, to do to her.
Sorry, but this "all tell, no show" submission is incoherent and is not the sort of thing that displays a mastery of poetry.
"Women are so great and precious
to my feelings and my notions."
The use of the comparative "so great" demands that you say something about what women are so great as or in comparison with or what it is that they are so great in being or doing.
"They create in me some passion
which can make the world my heaven."
If this is your comparison, then you would have been better off at saying "women are great" at creating passion in you. The use of "so" with "great" creates the expectation that you are going to say "in comparison with X".
More importantly, your word choice here makes you say that the passion that women create in you is only capable of making the world your heaven. It does not actually do so. That's what your use of "can" implies.
"But my love is not so selfish."
You haven't spoken of your love before, so the idea that it is something that arises from selfishness is unrelated to anything said in your first verse. And it is hardly clear what it is that your love is not so selfish as?
You would have made far more sense if you had written
I love all kinds of women, not for selfish reasons,
but because
it is the loving thing to do.
"I behold in them my mother,
sister, wife and serious people
as my love is deep and lasting."
Your syntax makes you say (incorrectly, by the way, given that the antecedent of "them" is the singular noun "passion" that you behold the passion that can (but apparently does not) make the world your heaven IN your mother and sisters and wife, etc., and therefore see them, and not you, as full of passion.
"They're my constant, strong emotions"
Here you say that your mother and your sister and your wife are emotions that you possess.
"and l care for their own future,"
And here you say that you care for the future of emotions.
"not just[a/the] means to get my pleasure;"
Did you mean to say that you do not regard women as just a means for you to achieve pleasure. If you did, you haven't actually, let alone with any felicity, said so.
"then l leave them apt to suffer".
The idea that when you treat women as if they existed, or were to be regarded as nothing more than a means, to give you pleasure leaves women having a tendency to suffer is something that is unevidenced and hardly grounded in the experience of all women.
More importantly, what you actually end up saying here is that after you care for "their" future, you then leave them with the tendency to suffer.
"I perceive in them their weakness
is an element of power
which enslaves my heart and fondness,
[and is] not a cause to reap their flowers."
This last line (with its ellipsis) looks suspiciously like you sacrificed sense to get a rhyme. And if "reap their flowers" is meant to be taken as a metaphor for some sexual act, you are stating that your mother's weakness is not to be seen as something you might otherwise be inclined, given her weakness, to do to her.
Sorry, but this "all tell, no show" submission is incoherent and is not the sort of thing that displays a mastery of poetry.
28th Sep 2021 9:20pm
1-I have written a poem, Baldwin, and not a short story to mention all the details to make it clear to those who can't understand poetry. The fact that it is appreciated by two poets assures me that the meaning is clear.
2-Who told you that MEANS is singular? It is plural as l am writing about women.
3- Sorry to say that l consider your other points, frankly speaking, are not worth answering, Baldwin.
2-Who told you that MEANS is singular? It is plural as l am writing about women.
3- Sorry to say that l consider your other points, frankly speaking, are not worth answering, Baldwin.
"2-Who told you that MEANS is singular? It is plural as l am writing about women."
Please show me where I said anything about the word "means" being singular? I was noting that the word needed an article for the line in which it appeared to be grammatically felicitous.
And what makes you think that the two "poets" who "appreciated" your piece have the critical abilities requisite to judge that a piece is written well?
Please show me where I said anything about the word "means" being singular? I was noting that the word needed an article for the line in which it appeared to be grammatically felicitous.
And what makes you think that the two "poets" who "appreciated" your piece have the critical abilities requisite to judge that a piece is written well?
28th Sep 2021 9:57pm
1-"not just a/the means to get my pleasure;"
If you use A, can it be plural? So l can use MEANS without A/THE, and your correction is not necessary.
2-So only YOU have the critical abilities required to judge other people's poetry!!!!!!!!! Who do you think you are?
If you use A, can it be plural? So l can use MEANS without A/THE, and your correction is not necessary.
2-So only YOU have the critical abilities required to judge other people's poetry!!!!!!!!! Who do you think you are?
Note the use of "a" with the plurals of man and woman in these notes and the implied note that the use of the article with "means" is good, if not, standard English, especially if you are speaking of something by which something else is obtained.
Empoweredhttps://blogs.lse.ac.uk lsereviewofbooks 2019/03/08
Mar 8, 2019 But I also want to make a more nuanced case for popular misogyny: it is the instrumentalisation of women as objects, where women are a means ...
SARAH BANET-WEISER # - Duke University Presshttps://www.dukeupress.edu Assets PubMaterialsPDF
of women as objects, where women are a means to an end: a systematic devaluing and dehumanizing of women. Popu lar misogyny is also, like.
59 pages
What's Wrong with Popular Feminism? - Los Angeles Review ...https://lareviewofbooks.org article whats-wrong-wit...
Apr 19, 2019 Banet-Weiser calls popular misogyny the instrumentalization of women as objects, where women are a means to an end: a systematic devaluing ...
Resonance and Radicalism: Feminist Framing in the Abortion ...https://www.jstor.org stable
by MM Ferree · 2003 · Cited by 702 Given this premise, help and protection for women are a means to the end of protecting the fetus, since a child-friendly society is one in which.
Women, Wages and Labour during the Industrial Revolutionhttps://onthewomanquestion.com 2021/03/05 wome...
Mar 5, 2021 Males, meanwhile, can only contribute to capital accumulation through wage labour. In short, men are a means of production; women are a means of ...
And the issue is NOT whether I alone have the critical abilities required to judge other people's [sic]*** poetry (and whether it is written well), but what it is that makes YOU think, or has provided you with sufficient and compelling grounds to correctly claim, that the two "poets who "appreciated" your submission (notably without any substantivized critical comments as to how and why the way it is written is something to be appreciated) possess these abilities. -- something you have yet to speak to. But thanks for once more reverting to a red herring.
***https://strategiesforparents.com/peoples-or-peoples-using-plural-or-plural-possessive/
Empoweredhttps://blogs.lse.ac.uk lsereviewofbooks 2019/03/08
Mar 8, 2019 But I also want to make a more nuanced case for popular misogyny: it is the instrumentalisation of women as objects, where women are a means ...
SARAH BANET-WEISER # - Duke University Presshttps://www.dukeupress.edu Assets PubMaterialsPDF
of women as objects, where women are a means to an end: a systematic devaluing and dehumanizing of women. Popu lar misogyny is also, like.
59 pages
What's Wrong with Popular Feminism? - Los Angeles Review ...https://lareviewofbooks.org article whats-wrong-wit...
Apr 19, 2019 Banet-Weiser calls popular misogyny the instrumentalization of women as objects, where women are a means to an end: a systematic devaluing ...
Resonance and Radicalism: Feminist Framing in the Abortion ...https://www.jstor.org stable
by MM Ferree · 2003 · Cited by 702 Given this premise, help and protection for women are a means to the end of protecting the fetus, since a child-friendly society is one in which.
Women, Wages and Labour during the Industrial Revolutionhttps://onthewomanquestion.com 2021/03/05 wome...
Mar 5, 2021 Males, meanwhile, can only contribute to capital accumulation through wage labour. In short, men are a means of production; women are a means of ...
And the issue is NOT whether I alone have the critical abilities required to judge other people's [sic]*** poetry (and whether it is written well), but what it is that makes YOU think, or has provided you with sufficient and compelling grounds to correctly claim, that the two "poets who "appreciated" your submission (notably without any substantivized critical comments as to how and why the way it is written is something to be appreciated) possess these abilities. -- something you have yet to speak to. But thanks for once more reverting to a red herring.
***https://strategiesforparents.com/peoples-or-peoples-using-plural-or-plural-possessive/
28th Sep 2021 11:12pm
1-Baldwin, can you give me an example of using A with the plural of man and woman. Here, l read something new from you. I want to have an example written by you, and an example of means as a plural noun having A before it. We can use A with means when MEANS is singular. E.g.He uses a good means to reach his end.
2- Women are not instruments, but some men consider them like that when they see them as means of fulfilling their desires and then leave them to their misery.
2- Women are not instruments, but some men consider them like that when they see them as means of fulfilling their desires and then leave them to their misery.
