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Ahavati
Tyrant of Words
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mel44 said:I will look at link and do my best...The feedback makes sense as I am working on the struggle to connect my data based reasoning with my emotional responses and yes therein lies the problem...unexplored territory for me... I will work on it.  Thank you both for feedback.  As far as spelling, Visualize and Theorize are spelled with an "S" in England...never a zed "Z"... I am trying to adjust as well. lol

Omg. I can SO relate to this. From America to England and back again. I thought I knew...no, wait, you don't. I thought I learned. No, wait, you didn't. I mean, you did, but now you have to unlearn and remember what you thought you knew again.

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mel44
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United Kingdom
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My first attempt at re-write - I think I am closer to my message

Cognition and Emotion

A veil exists before me
Through which I visualize
Offers me a logical reasoning
While empathy abates
Evidence, I theorize

If credibility of only mind
Renders basic information
A rationalist philosophy
That cause precedes effect
Begets a spiritual abomination

Therefore

To neglect emotional appeals
Argues the reliance on conclusions
Imperils my loyalty to faith
An exclusive belief in fact
My soul becomes disillusioned

Spirituality directs my morals
Elements of consciousness
My compassion for those in pain
Demands consideration
For an intimate usefulness

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mel44
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Oh it is English but foreign...A period = Full stop, Trash=Rubbish, Vacuum = Hoover, Eggplant = Obergine , Truck = Laury and instead of hello it's "You alright?"  makes me want to ask why...do I look a mess??? Then they don't carry the 1 in math they put it below...what? And too often extra "u" in every spelling and no zed!  UGH!

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Ahavati
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You're definitely on the right track, Mel!

mel44 said:My first attempt at re-write - I think I am closer to my message

Cognition and Emotion

A veil exists before me
Through which I visualize
Offers me a logical reasoning
While empathy abates
Evidence, I theorize

[I think what you're attempting to say here is that beyond empathy there's logical reasoning lacking evidence thus you theorize. The issue I see is the syntax is choppy without a smooth flow.

For example, the first two lines are great. Nice flow and syntax. The third isn't too bad but the last two seem muddled. Almost like a train of thought was interrupted for a tack on.

How about something like:

A veil exists before me
through which I visualize
Offers me a logical reasoning
While Empathy abates
for theorized evidence

What I've done is place more emphasis on structure and flow via lowercase, capitalizing only when a new thought emerges. This allows the reader to discern the process more easily than is currently.

Try this throughout the verse and let's see where it goes from here. Remember your reader can't read your thoughts, only your verse. So it's up to you to clearly convey what you're attempting to say.

Not to say metaphor is always crystal; however, it does typically flow better and links back to the reference.

What you're attempting to do is balance philosophy with emotion and empathy with logic. You're attempting to meld two voices into one poem; however, it appears you're taking snippits from each and patching them together to form a conclusion that's just as chopped.

Is that understandable?]

If credibility of only mind
Renders basic information
A rationalist philosophy
That cause precedes effect
Begets a spiritual abomination

Therefore

To neglect emotional appeals
Argues the reliance on conclusions
Imperils my loyalty to faith
An exclusive belief in fact
My soul becomes disillusioned

Spirituality directs my morals
Elements of consciousness
My compassion for those in pain
Demands consideration
For an intimate usefulness

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Miss_Sub
- Missy -
Tyrant of Words
United Kingdom
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mel44 said:Oh it is English but foreign...A period = Full stop, Trash=Rubbish, Vacuum = Hoover, Eggplant = Obergine , Truck = Laury and instead of hello it's "You alright?"  makes me want to ask why...do I look a mess??? Then they don't carry the 1 in math they put it below...what? And too often extra "u" in every spelling and no zed!  UGH!

Ah, but it makes the English who we are. You fly that strange spelling flag with pride my dear, and we'll continue queuing, having a purse exclusively full of copper coins, exclaiming "alright my lovely?" and complaining about the weather much to the general exclamations of "wtf?" from our continental neighbours

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JohnnyBlaze
Fire of Insight
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Ahavati said:You're definitely on the right track, Mel!



Definitely.

The more Mel44 or personality and flow incorporated into your poem, the more compelling it becomes. Keeping your readers engaged is paramount. If they feel like they are being preached at or lectured, they'll tune out.

Bob's your uncle.


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Miss_Sub
- Missy -
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mel44 said:

Cognition and Emotion

A veil exists before me
Through which I visualize
Offers me a logical reasoning
While empathy abates
Evidence, I theorize

If credibility of only mind
Renders basic information
A rationalist philosophy
That cause precedes effect
Begets a spiritual abomination

Therefore

To neglect emotional appeals
Argues the reliance on conclusions
Imperils my loyalty to faith
An exclusive belief in fact
My soul becomes disillusioned

Spirituality directs my morals
Elements of consciousness
My compassion for those in pain
Demands consideration
For an intimate usefulness


I'd like to focus, if I may, on a couple of stanzas in particular. When I share writing with those closest to me, a good friend of mine always says "Missy, cut the faff"... and I am going to apply this advice to the following stanzas:

"If credibility of only mind
Renders basic information
A rationalist philosophy
"

Losing the word "mind" is going to help the flow of that line immensely. Similarly, removing some of the start line capital letters is going to draw focus back to the statement, rather than the words. Adding a comma after "philosophy" will lead you into the next part of the stanza as a statement.

"That cause precedes effect
Begets a spiritual abomination"


Changing "that" to "then" makes it an answer to the question you have set up for the reader in the previous line. Removing the word "begets" is a fine example of de-faffing. Also adding a semi-colon will make that last line a fine stand alone statement. So the stanza would then read:

"if credibility of mind
renders basic information
a rationalist philosophy,
then cause precedes effect;
a spiritual abomination"


Can you see how losing excess words for the sake of it (de-faffing) actually helps communicate what you want to say? I always find that I write out what I want to say, then during the editing phase I eliminate as many words as I can that are not necessary. You are then left with a pure article that is exclusively you, and exclusively what you want to communicate.

Similarly this can be done with the next stanza:

"therefore

to neglect emotional appeals
argues reliance on conclusions
imperils my loyalty to faith,
an exclusive belief;
my soul becomes disillusioned"


and again with the next:

"spirituality directs my morals,
elements of consciousness;
my compassion for those in pain
demands consideration

an intimate usefulness."


Seperating those last two lines adds diction. It's where you would naturally pause for breath. A little more on that next...

Another thing that will help you with this is if you read your poems out loud. This genuinly helps in the editing phase. If you find yourself stumbling over the words, then maybe you have to look at the rhythm of your words. Perhaps if there are too many, perhaps they need trimming here and there. This as an exercise will help with de-faffing.

I would like to address the (American) English spelling issue, because you are English. To change your spelling to the ways of our American brothers and sisters loses you as a writer somewhat, because that's not who you are. When you read a poem, it should bleed you. We should be able to see and taste and feel you, and who you are, and what you want to say from each and every line. To change those spellings, loses your identity as a writer.

Something to think about anyway.

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Ahavati
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JohnnyBlaze said:

Definitely.

The more Mel44 or personality and flow incorporated into your poem, the more compelling it becomes. Keeping your readers engaged is paramount. If they feel like they are being preached at or lectured, they'll tune out.

Bob's your uncle.



Whether she uses her American heritage or English migrational spelling...or both! Now there's an idea!  

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mel44
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Responding to all above.  Thank you very much!  I am going to take all of this exquisite feedback in and work on this poem more.  This is an amazing site and I truly feel I am learning and growing and that is fundamental! You are all simply brilliant:)

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Ahavati
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mel44 said:Responding to all above.  Thank you very much!  I am going to take all of this exquisite feedback in and work on this poem more.  This is an amazing site and I truly feel I am learning and growing and that is fundamental! You are all simply brilliant:)

❤ that's what it's all about, Mel.

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mel44
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Okay...I left out a bit but think I found a path to express the intended meaning.  I left out most punctuation and let the line breaks speak instead.  

A veil exists through which I see
Evidence and logic I theorise
Emotions rise within
Inasmuch, I empathise

If data becomes my proof of truth
Rendering only fact and information
Profound effect, as it begets
A spiritual abomination

A neglect of emotional appeals
Argues reliance on conclusion
My now partitioned soul
Becomes but disillusioned

If a faith directs my morals
Affording elements of consciousness
It demands consideration
For knowledge's usefulness

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Ahavati
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We're working on it, Mel! ❤

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JohnnyBlaze
Fire of Insight
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mel44 said:Okay...I left out a bit but think I found a path to express the intended meaning.  I left out most punctuation and let the line breaks speak instead.  

A veil exists through which I see
Evidence and logic I theorise
Emotions rise within
Inasmuch, I empathise

If data becomes my proof of truth
Rendering only fact and information
Profound effect, as it begets
A spiritual abomination

A neglect of emotional appeals
Argues reliance on conclusion
My now partitioned soul
Becomes but disillusioned

If a faith directs my morals
Affording elements of consciousness
Does it not demand ample consideration
When no useful knowledge is gleaned?


I think Stanza 1 & 2 are solid and have great flow. I wouldn't change them at all.

But ......

Use of the word "profound" got my brain excited for some reason. It made me think of the Latin phrase "de profundis" which means "from the depths".

De profundis, it begets
A spiritual abomination

From the depths, it begets
A spiritual abomination

If you ask me, that sounds both "profound" and "unnervingly creepy"

I suggest turning the tables on the reader at the end by proposing a question and interrupting the rhyme scheme. Above in bold text is just an example; by all means experiment with different words if you feel a question is worthwhile.

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mel44
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Oh, I truly love both suggestions and I definitely like ending in a question!

A veil exists through which I see
Evidence and logic I theorise
Emotions rise within
Inasmuch, I empathise

If data becomes my proof of truth
Rendering only fact and information
From the depths, it begets
a spiritual abomination

A neglect of emotional appeals
Argues reliance on conclusion
My now partitioned soul
becomes but disillusioned

If a faith directs my morals
Affording elements of consciousness
Does knowledge not demand consideration
for compassion’s usefulness?

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Ahavati
Tyrant of Words
United States
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Well done, you two! Mel I believe you have a winner!

Thank you for allowing us the honor to critique your poetry.

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