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Punctuation Workshop

Tallen
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JohnnyBlaze said:

Dang. I never looked at it that way. I always viewed ellipsis as a trailing off or interruption.


i've always used ellipses
as a looking achingly into the future. . .

as an eternal pause and want of things to come

However, i DID know the most common usage for this oft not used punctuation.

Ahavati
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JohnnyBlaze said:

Dang. I never looked at it that way. I always viewed ellipsis as a trailing off or interruption.


Now you knows more!

nomoth
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Ahavati said:Brief Origin of the Modern Ellipsis

The word originates in the Greek ἔλλειψις, meaning “falling short, defect,”  but, the ellipsis also becomes associated with omission fairly early in its history.  The ellipsis is considered by many as the most unusual mark in the English language because it performs the exact opposite of what punctuation marks are designed to convey:  meaning between ideas.  

Just where did the ellipsis come from, and why is it so unusual? Its history takes us to Anne Toner’s fascinating book, Ellipsis in English Literature: Signs of Omission to explore the earliest print records of the modern ellipsis back to the 16th century.

The ellipsis may have served a different function, and was no stranger to English texts before the plays of Shakespeare and Jonson. In medieval manuscripts, we find an interesting editing mark—sometimes called subpuncting or underdotting—was placed under the word or phrase to indicate its removal, particularly when that word or phrase has been copied erroneously.  

A study conducted by David Wakelin, A scholar of medieval manuscripts, on how on a sample of 9,000 manuscripts at the Huntington Library. He discovered “crossing out, subpuncting, or erasure” accounted for 25% of the corrections he found. He further notes that subpuncting begins to die out in the early 16th century, and Toner picks up on the rise of the ellipsis in the late 16th century.  

Is the ellipses an evolutionary descendant of subpuncting or underdotting? We may never know for sure.  Even so, they share a similarity used to omit meaning.

But what does it MEEEEAN, [N]omoth?!  







ok 1st question. How do i quote sections from the text, instead of the whole bloody thing? just erase what i do not want? (I think I just done this!)

2nd. I knew this would be so interesting. I remember reading Jared Diamond's work on New Guinea 'creole' and even Julian Cope's super fascinating work on neolithic language (even Chomsky who I like but whose linguistics did not resonate). That language is rooted in the land and streets (and the cloisters);  that it could never evolve-develop from the top-down. Of course, meaning that those who use it most, 'own' it; like those of the land, are the directors of its dynamic and evolution.

The development of the ellipses; its origin of the word still makes sense.

Thanks again and loved the mentions. You know me quite well methinks, in this short time.  

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nomoth said:


ok 1st question. How do i quote sections from the text, instead of the whole bloody thing? just erase what i do not want? (I think I just done this!)

2nd. I knew this would be so interesting. I remember reading Jared Diamond's work on New Guinea 'creole' and even Julian Cope's super fascinating work on neolithic language (even Chomsky who I like but whose linguistics did not resonate). That language is rooted in the land and streets (and the cloisters);  that it could never evolve-develop from the top-down. Of course, meaning that those who use it most, 'own' it; like those of the land, are the directors of its dynamic and evolution.

The development of the ellipses; its origin of the word still makes sense.

Thanks again and loved the mentions. You know me quite well methinks, in this short time.  


LOL! I think you just bloody done it as well!  Simply delete any text between [ quote ] and [ /quote ] you don't want to appear.  

That is fascinating in regards to rooted language.  The originators do own it, regardless of how it evolves throughout other cultures or subcultures.  There are places in Mexico and Nicaragua where the Spanish language is original ( back to the conquistadors ), nothing like what we speak here in the states—which amazed me when I visited, thinking I was somewhat fluent ( enough to get by ).  

JohnnyBlaze
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Tallen said:

i've always used ellipses
as a looking achingly into the future. . .

as an eternal pause and want of things to come

However, i DID know the most common usage for this oft not used punctuation.


You are such a romantic; if your name was Colin, I would . . .

Ahavati said:

Now you knows more!


Yep. It's like Schoolhouse Rock! in here.

nomoth
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Ahavati said:

LOL! I think you just bloody done it as well!

That is fascinating in regards to rooted language.  The originators do own it, regardless of how it evolves throughout other cultures or subcultures.  There are places in Mexico and Nicaragua where the Spanish language is original ( back to the conquistadors ), nothing like what we speak here in the states—which amazed me when I visited, thinking I was somewhat fluent ( enough to get by ).  


my own feeling is that language is a form of living thing (in my own mind a system, archonic in that it can evolve and grow, without any inherent spirit) and that it is from ourselves that infuses it with soul and meaning.

Like a musical instrument that can be abused and twisted and even tortured without any real harm and like the instrument analogy,  it is an advantage to understand its limits in order to do this experiment.  essentially that language is soulless without us and i often think of Burroughs 'word is a virus' quote...I am rambling.

Loved Tallens musical reference.

Ahavati
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nomoth said:

my own feeling is that language is a form of living thing (in my own mind a system, archonic in that it can evolve and grow, without any inherent spirit) and that it is from ourselves that infuses it with soul and meaning.

Like a musical instrument that can be abused and twisted and even tortured without any real harm and like the instrument analogy,  it is an advantage to understand its limits in order to do this experiment.  essentially that language is soulless without us and i often think of Burroughs 'word is a virus' quote...I am rambling.

Loved Tallens musical reference.


If everything has a soul, then sound isn't exempt. According to some of the oldest writings, it was the beginning of everything.  

Speaking of musical references, I just read this. Wow!

Listen to the oldest song in the world which was written 3,400 years ago

https://faroutmagazine.co.uk/oldest-song-in-the-world-written-3400-years-ago/?fbclid=IwAR0-He0udKi8TKCH4wwXnzqdd1r5fJ9H98P1ZAGiAnwFH_ylOYtn-Rv1x00

JohnnyBlaze
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Ahavati said:
If everything has a soul, then sound isn't exempt. According to some of the oldest writings, it was the beginning of everything.  


sound = vibration = thought = energy = Source

( not necessarily in that order . . . )

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JohnnyBlaze said:

sound = vibration = thought = energy = Source

( not necessarily in that order . . . )


Exactly! Source = energy = vibration = sound = thought!

Okay, what's next? The Ampersand or Dashes?  We got to push it peoples! After today NAPO IS T-MINUS TEN DAYS TO REGISTRATION LAUNCH!

Layla
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&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&..next please.

I think its the bukowski of punctuation.  Not highly accepted or respected by the literary world of publishings, yet punctution academy found a place for it at the end of the table, thus the open ended'ness which so many wise alecs quoted on the net referring to it as open ended story of love and life...such hopeless romantics! lol

Ahavati
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Ha! Quite right! Ampersand i'tis!

Wh1skeySwagger
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I love the ampersand (&) ... I like it almost as much as the ellipsis, which until i caught up on Avahti's thread, I did not even know this had a name besides dot dot dot ;p

Ahavati
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Brief Origin of the Modern Ampersand

The ampersand was originally a ligature of the letters E and T ( “et” is Latin for and ), and dates back to the first century. If you examine the modern Ampersand, you’ll likely see the E and T separately.  Then the fun becomes unseeing them in the various representation of form!  

As type developed over the next few centuries, it eventually became more stylized and less representative of its origins.  I’ve included an image of the evolution of the ampersand in the next comment as an example (1 =original Roman ligature, 2 and 3 = fourth century, and 4-6 = ninth century).

The modern ampersand has remained largely unchanged from the Carolingian ampersands ( less formal-looking than modern representatives developed as part of cursive scripts in the ninth century ).  

While the ampersand has been in use since the first century, the definition wasn’t added to dictionaries until 1837. The word was created as a slurred form of “and, per se and”.  It is now a part of every roman font used in modern text.


But what does this slurrrrrred form MEEEEAN, Layla  

It may now mean “and” by itself, but originally “ampersand” was a mispronunciation of the phrase “and per se and.” This can be traced to when “&” was treated as the 27th letter of the alphabet in the 1800s.  

At the time, when school children recited the alphabet, they would use the Latin phrase per se when a letter was also a word by itself. So, for instance, “a” was read out as “per se a,” meaning “a by itself.”

At the end of the alphabet, meanwhile, children would say “x, y, z, and per se and.” And if you say “and per se and” fast and often enough, it will eventually slur into something like “ampersand.”

So why is the “&” symbol known as an “ampersand”? Because nineteenth-century school children were rushing when reciting the alphabet.  


In summary, Layla, the English language is quite often stupid.

Source: https://getproofed.com/writing-tips/a-guide-to-the-ampersand/


When to use an Ampersand:

The ampersand usage rules are pretty simple.

1. Use in the place of a conjunction.

    •  Fish and chips = Fish & chips ( yum, Tallen! )

    •  Rock and roll = Rock & roll ( 4-evah, [N]omoth! )

    •  Crown and Coke = Crown & Coke ( hiccup, Johnny! )  

Note:  Replacing a conjunction is typically expressed in informal writing: an email to a friend like Sky_dancer, for example. Likewise, if you’re taking notes by hand, the ampersand offers a quick and simple way of writing “and.”

2. Use in a business name, book title, movies, songs, albums, marketing copy text, and citations of sources with more than one author ( APA referencing ).  

      •   JohnnnyBlaze & Co

      •  Death & The LadyChylde  

      •  Pride & Prejudice  

      •  Tallen, [N]omoth, & Swagger ( year ) *

* Note: Author citations include 2-5 authors.  When citing more than 6, then use the first author’s name only, e.g., Sky_dancer, et al. (year)

Also, many professional writers avoid using the ampersand when writing the marketing copy, citing it’s too informal an approach, which could have potentially negative consequences.  

Lastly, the MLA Handbook  suggests replacing “&” with “and” when it occurs in a title.  This will typically rule out the main text and titles of formal documents, such as essays or business reports.  

Bottom line is always check your style guide for advice on ampersand usage, Layla, and & remain consistent throughout your document.



3. Use within a series to identify an item as part of its name and not a separator  

      • Wh1skeySwagger enjoyed disco, funk, rhythm & blues, and hip-hop  

Note how the conjunction ‘and’ is not replaced with the ampersand in this example, because it’s not a separator but part of the name.  


4. Use to identify more than one addressee, particularly a couple.

      • “Mr. & Mrs. Johnny Blaze”


5. Use in Poetry

Poetry is ruled by creative purpose and often does not follow the rules of formal prose; therefore, is optional per individual writer’s style.  However, it is still advised to follow the rule of consistency, as well as investigate publishers you may be submitting to, as opinions of its use vary from acceptable to lazy.  

Sources:  

https://thepioneerwoman.com/fun-and-learning/twenty-interesting-things-aboutthe-ampersand/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ampersand
https://www.lexico.com/explore/origin-of-ampersand
https://blog.spoongraphics.co.uk/articles/the-funkiest-ampersands-you-have-ever-seen
https://inspirationfeed.com/ampersand-design/

Tallen
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Oooooooooooo............swoon and thrum.......

so romantic!!

" a broken infinity "

HOW can anyone (JB) refute that thought?!!

there is and always will be an

& ....

Ahavati
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Tallen said:Oooooooooooo............swoon and thrum.......

so romantic!!

" a broken infinity "

HOW can anyone (JB) refute that thought?!!

there is and always will be an

& ....


Almost as romantic as the semicolon; the story isn't finished. . .

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