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DU: How to Behave?

Viddax
Viddax
Lord Viddax
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Imperfected

- I agree that there needs to be discussion on this: please create a new thread, otherwise I may go down a rabbit-hole and bore people too much. I'll just say that technically some things are goods not services: but any exception should really for 'x' reason and generic: not per individual, if that makes sense.


drone

- Simple is not stupid. Existence is complicated enough, without skipping over the 'obvious'. That also does not account for the fact that the internet has no universal guideline, meaning common sense is not always applicable. Hence this thread to establish the basics.


Valeriya

- As just mentioned, the internet has no fundamental guideline, so having something for DU at least is the idea. With the goal being it is plain talk; with the legal stuff there but distilled down into an easy to understand little package.

- Mod presence does seem to have room for improvement, though we cannot be everywhere and always neutral robots.
I think perhaps there is a sense that DU has 3 tiers: The Webmistress who can change it as she sees fit, The Mods who are the police (not great comparison given 2020 circumstances), and everyone else all lumped together. In reality there are ranks, and this should hopefully empower members. Not to throw their weight around in order to shut down others because they are newer and 'lesser', but to be examples of the behaviour (and also writing style) for others.
However the misbehaviour of any rank is held accountable to the same standard: standards I am trying to see what people think they are. - Though with this, it might be that Mods are held to a different standard, not to give them/us a free pass but to reflect the powers and responsibility they have. = It doesn't make sense to have rules about specific things such as confirming/removing extreme content tags for all members, when non-Mods do not have that function. = The DU guidelines seeking to pre-empt this instead by promoting behaviour and ways of using DU; such as not just plonking on the 'extreme' tag in the hope of more views.

A thought is maybe to have an almost 'thread deputy': someone self-appointed or even appointed by the thread creator who keeps a watch to see if people are misbehaving. This would not be necessary or encouraged for more easy-going threads or threads that allow an anything-goes approach. However if the deputy abuses their power then a Mod steps in, and the deputy is banned maybe even permanently.


Blackwolf (Valeriya)

- I thought you were referencing a modern term then. This highlighted for me, Valeriya's point about having  the DU guidelines in an easy and accessible way, and in a way that everyone sees at least once.


Ahavati

- There are numerous ways to attack people and not all of them can be punished or enforced against. 'Banter' between two people can be harmless but highly offensive to another person; this does not mean any and all banter should be banned everywhere.

- Please do not post references or extracts to private messages, you would not like anyone else referencing a private message you may be connected  with.
The topic of indirectly mentioning people is a difficult one. The easy solution is one I do not support: to simply heavily punish anything that may possibly be a mention no matter how obscure. Such heavy handed enforcement does not solve the underlying problem. Unfortunately it seems to be part of a larger topic of perception and personal acceptance: one person's praise is another person's damnation.

This seems to reinforce my thought that DU should have a way for members to defend themselves for anything they are 'charged' with. - That a member has the right to prove their innocence; and anything underhanded or false used as a defence will be taken as further evidence.
Basically, explain metaphorical-your stance, but understand that final judgement lies with the Mods. That the end result may not be dishing out punishment and justice, but simply telling 'x' and 'y' to avoid each other because they cannot treat each other with fundamental respect.

Any wording will not be in a 'thou shalt not' term; it will hopefully be in 20th/2st Century Grammar such as 'Do not harass other Du members' or 'Do not seek to falsely report other members'. not going into the nitty gritty and those tunnels: stating the overall and general so that there is no confusion.

Ahavati
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Erm, could you clarify who you are addressing regarding private messages? Since my name is last, it would appear I am being addressed, and I never said anything ( that I recall ) about private messages.

Also, in regards to naming DU members in poetry: it's not difficult to read what type of poem it is, and whether or not something negative is being inferred toward such poet. Permission should be garnered unless it's a tribute poem. And I mean * tribute * poem, as in positive.

Valeriyabeyond
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Nah, nah, nah.
The right of an individual to interpret poetry as they choose belongs to that individual.
Everyone does not interpret the same way
To police a poet is wrong !

Too many rules,  is gestapo.
Rules explained down to the letter,  should not be necessary.

We are adults,  and we know  what we are doing.
When we touch that keyboard,  or put that
pen to paper,  we have something in our hearts that we wish to express.

There are times when
we have had our fill
of the indifference that surrounds us in our personal lives,  or
here on DU.

Those fiery emotions
may appear in our work
or on a thread.
It would behoove us all
if we were to read our postings aloud to ourselves, feel it, listen
to it.
Ask yourself what is your intention

Is it appropriate?
Will it injure or slander anyone?
If you can lie  down at night knowing that nothing you have done,  or said, has  hurt someone then you have successfully made it through another day

Stop the micro managing let DU heal,  let her breathe.

We have had a glitch,  a painful glitch to some,  let's not ruin the free
spirit of DU by hammering rules and bringing back wrongdoings from the past.

We recover when we have learned,  to not back bite our brother or sister
When we leave the past in the past and move forward in change

We don't need to air dirty laundry or point fingers to create change
To progress in life is
to see, where WE have done wrong, it's not to not look at our brothers laundry list of dirty deeds.

Move forward in peace


Blackwolf
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Thank you for your time and trouble trying to
deal with past troubles and *raw* areas , Viddax...

I appreciate more clarity on the site...

I hope others do !

Valeriyabeyond
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Blackwolf said:Thank you for your time and trouble trying to
deal with past troubles and *raw* areas , Viddax...

I appreciate more clarity on the site...

I hope others do !


Agreed
I appreciate your effort and the individual attention you have given us .
V

ImperfectedStone
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Viddax, I do not think it's fair I should have to start another thread, it's a rule infraction so it's related. Why add yet more rules when the current ones aren't followed? I think it's flawed to talk about adding more things for mods to police when it's enough on their backs already. I won't push anymore.

Viddax
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ImperfectedStone

- I asked and suggested, not demanded, a new thread be started to give the topic the attention it deserves. A problem of threads is that bright and good ideas can be missed in the mass of posts, yet those with an axe to grind often start a new thread to harp on the same point! The idea is not to make new rules, but to clarify and simplify those in place.
It is definitely not about 'policing' more; it is about putting rules/guidelines in place that streamline any 'policing'.

I didn't think it fair to have your words and topic become hidden and buried in this thread. It saddens me when people feel so defeated that they don't push what they feel is important. All the more saddening compared to the many voices in the world that push topics that honestly do not matter.


Valeriya

- Though police is definitely not the way I want to go, or a way that DU should go. It would help everything, the world, if people learnt to forgive and forget. Admittedly I do not always practice that, but I hope on DU I present a persona that is not vindictive and vengeful. It works better if a Mod's wrath is few and far between: all the better to show when someone has f*cked up simply by the tone and not by a public execution to gawk at.

Much as I would like to just move on, I am thankfully not naive (or should that be pure?) enough to believe that problems never return: history constantly proves otherwise. If DU can get into a habit of discussing and reflecting on glitches, then surely that would help. - Highlighting the problem, but not pointing fingers.


Ahavati

- Apologies. In my attempt to reply to everyone I seem to get in a bit of a muddle sometimes; not the best when added on top of a long day. It was directed at Jonnyblaze.

- It is hard to ascertain what every type of poem is: as that involves reading every single poem posted. And such a task is not only too much to ask the Mods to do, but borders on surveillance and a 'police-state' approach.


Johnnyblaze

- Repeated from above, in order to properly address the right person. Original and mistaken post will remain; rather than have me try to rewrite history.

- There are numerous ways to attack people and not all of them can be punished or enforced against. 'Banter' between two people can be harmless but highly offensive to another person; this does not mean any and all banter should be banned everywhere.

- Please do not post references or extracts to private messages, you would not like anyone else referencing a private message you may be connected  with.
The topic of indirectly mentioning people is a difficult one. The easy solution is one I do not support: to simply heavily punish anything that may possibly be a mention no matter how obscure. Such heavy handed enforcement does not solve the underlying problem. Unfortunately it seems to be part of a larger topic of perception and personal acceptance: one person's praise is another person's damnation.

This seems to reinforce my thought that DU should have a way for members to defend themselves for anything they are 'charged' with. - That a member has the right to prove their innocence; and anything underhanded or false used as a defence will be taken as further evidence.
Basically, explain metaphorical-your stance, but understand that final judgement lies with the Mods. That the end result may not be dishing out punishment and justice, but simply telling 'x' and 'y' to avoid each other because they cannot treat each other with fundamental respect.

Any wording will not be in a 'thou shalt not' term; it will hopefully be in 20th/2st Century Grammar such as 'Do not harass other Du members' or 'Do not seek to falsely report other members'. not going into the nitty gritty and those tunnels: stating the overall and general so that there is no confusion.


*(To any and all readers) - The police and the security they bring are a good thing, but unfortunately it seems to be a dirty word/term now because the power they wield is mismanaged. Policing is also something that does not quite suit anything connected to the arts, creativity, or expression. - It ends up being a case of solve the current problem by any means, rather than solve the underlying problem. The actions of the stupid and the few seem all too often to force the police into enforcing to keep the peace. Aside over*

David_Macleod
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ImperfectedStone said:Viddax, I do not think it's fair I should have to start another thread, it's a rule infraction so it's related. Why add yet more rules when the current ones aren't followed? I think it's flawed to talk about adding more things for mods to police when it's enough on their backs already. I won't push anymore.

Just as a matter of record what written rule has been infracted. If we are talking about the rules set by a group director in this forum thread, then these are not enforceable rules. These can be changed without notice, by the group directors. The Webmiss has said to me and other group directors cab change rules and settings at any point as long as they Don't seriously affect the Official DU guidelines. So if you are talking about a serious infraction of DU guidelines can you please quote chapter and verse

thank you,...


Ahavati
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Viddax said:

Ahavati

- Apologies. In my attempt to reply to everyone I seem to get in a bit of a muddle sometimes; not the best when added on top of a long day. It was directed at Jonnyblaze.

- It is hard to ascertain what every type of poem is: as that involves reading every single poem posted. And such a task is not only too much to ask the Mods to do, but borders on surveillance and a 'police-state' approach.


Thank you for the clarification, Viddax. Poetry is largely personal perception, which isn't universal truth. I get that. But there are times when an attack is pretty obvious.

I completely agree the guidelines need to be clarified for future peace. I must say, this has been the most pleasant day on DU in a long, long while. Excellent poetry and comraderie.

May it always reign.

Valeriyabeyond
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Viddax said:

Valeriya

- Though police is definitely not the way I want to go, or a way that DU should go. It would help everything, the world, if people learnt to forgive and forget. Admittedly I do not always practice that, but I hope on DU I present a persona that is not vindictive and vengeful. It works better if a Mod's wrath is few and far between: all the better to show when someone has f*cked up simply by the tone and not by a public execution to gawk at.

Much as I would like to just move on, I am thankfully not naive (or should that be pure?) enough to believe that problems never return: history constantly proves otherwise. If DU can get into a habit of discussing and reflecting on glitches, then surely that would help. - Highlighting the problem, but not pointing fingers.


Valeriyabeyond
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Valeriyabeyond said:Viddax said:

Valeriya

- Though police is definitely not the way I want to go, or a way that DU should go. It would help everything, the world, if people learnt to forgive and forget. Admittedly I do not always practice that, but I hope on DU I present a persona that is not vindictive and vengeful. It works better if a Mod's wrath is few and far between: all the better to show when someone has f*cked up simply by the tone and not by a public execution to gawk at.

Much as I would like to just move on, I am thankfully not naive (or should that be pure?) enough to believe that problems never return: history constantly proves otherwise. If DU can get into a habit of discussing and reflecting on glitches, then surely that would help. - Highlighting the problem, but not pointing fingers.



Thank you for your reply
My comments was mainly directed at a previous comment made on this thread
I agree we don't need more rules or policing was my point
It's time to sort through let the cream of our ideas rise to the top and not point fingers
It feels alot is being accomplished Thank you to you and to all the mods

David_Macleod
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If I remember right A tribute was written to me by one of the NAPO folk. To many, it was a horrible spiteful and ugly poem that was written bu them and posted into a competition without prior permission, quite a few complaints were made about it before I saw it. In fact, I had been contacted by a MOD to get my thoughts - given my strange sense of humour I laughed it off as a poor attempt of humour. But I was soon to learn that the scathing attack had a stream of serious abuse laced through it

I tend to think that those calling for all mentions of members names are never used is a cowardly way of hiding especially when such members carry out hate campagins of abuse and bullying by writing nasty poems and comments about someone then getting immunity from punishment breaching the DU Guidelines. They can and do these acts in plain sight  even when others complain about the same poem abusing a particular person despite the name not being mentioned - remember "The Legless Cowboy"

It might be an idea if three independent people complain about a poem being targeted at a specific poet without their name being mentioned and by inference, they know who it is really about then the punishment should be dished out on the poet who wrote it - This decision in no way commands the same standards of evidence as a court, So decision could be legally applied on the basis of "The Ballance of Probabilities!" Decisions bases on that are still legal and enforceable,

DU is a privately owned Website - "It Is Not A Democracy" The only rights you have to services and membership of the site are 100% under the control of the Site Owner. However, the site owner can be charged with a hate crime if she allows thing on the site that breaks hate speech, libel discriminatory policies and practices - like being racist, many types of bigotry for example like mistreatment of the disabled or non-binary genders types.

Blackwolf
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If people are too immature to deal with poems directed at them ,
then I feel *that* is a problem...we just have to grow up , and
learn , *not* everyone is going to like us...

Hell , many years ago , when I came here , Johnny wrote a poem
series about witches which I detested , as I am one , and I went
for his poetic throat...

We both got admonished...( I do believe )

Yet , if people can not take / give *some*
ridicule , and endure it with grace , love ,
and / or humor , we have a far bigger problem here...

Look at the world today , especially in the US
political / race scenario , as well as rest of the world...

We do pretty damn good , overall , here at DUP...

I believe *this* could be easily manipulated by three
friends online here , who simply disfavor a particular poet...

"It might be an idea if three independent people complain about a poem being targeted at a specific poet without their name being mentioned and by inference, they know who it is really about then the punishment should be dished out on the poet who wrote it"

I would not go for it...

JohnnyBlaze
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Blackwolf said:If people are too immature to deal with poems directed at them ,
then I feel *that* is a problem...we just have to grow up , and
learn , *not* everyone is going to like us...

Hell , many years ago , when I came here , Johnny wrote a poem
series about witches which I detested , as I am one , and I went
for his poetic throat...

We both got admonished...( I do believe )

Yet , if people can not take / give *some*
ridicule , and endure it with grace , love ,
and / or humor , we have a far bigger problem here...

Look at the world today , especially in the US
political / race scenario , as well as rest of the world...

We do pretty damn good , overall , here at DUP...

I believe *this* could be easily manipulated by three
friends online here , who simply disfavor a particular poet...

"It might be an idea if three independent people complain about a poem being targeted at a specific poet without their name being mentioned and by inference, they know who it is really about then the punishment should be dished out on the poet who wrote it"

I would not go for it...


One or two poems from MaryWalker's "Witches Are Bitches" series were hidden by the Moderators in response to your complaints before I was consulted with. I successfully argued their reinstatement given they were neither directed at anyone in particular nor hate based.  

If you continued reading the series, there were more installments paying tribute to three modern day witches Ahavati personally interviewed for a series of articles that I supplied sketched portraits for.  

David_Macleod
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Blackwolf said:If people are too immature to deal with poems directed at them ,
then I feel *that* is a problem...we just have to grow up , and
learn , *not* everyone is going to like us...

Hell , many years ago , when I came here , Johnny wrote a poem
series about witches which I detested , as I am one , and I went
for his poetic throat...

We both got admonished...( I do believe )

Yet , if people can not take / give *some*
ridicule , and endure it with grace , love ,
and / or humor , we have a far bigger problem here...

Look at the world today , especially in the US
political / race scenario , as well as rest of the world...

We do pretty damn good , overall , here at DUP...

I believe *this* could be easily manipulated by three
friends online here , who simply disfavor a particular poet...

"It might be an idea if three independent people complain about a poem being targeted at a specific poet without their name being mentioned and by inference, they know who it is really about then the punishment should be dished out on the poet who wrote it"

I would not go for it...


I actually agree with what you say and DU, on the whole, does well but we have to take responsibility for our actions when taken against another member. The arts, (I include poetry in that), is full of sensitive people many people have mental health issues and sometimes a harsh comment like "Just pull your self together!" can have huge consequences' So we should all be sensitive especially around people with mental health problems, we have a duty as a member not to make things deliberately difficult for another member to enjoy the site (It's In The Guidelines)

Maybe the three people is a bad idea - maybe if three mods recognise the person being abused in a poem could act - its what used to happen

:-)

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