The Next Level
lepperochan said:All sounds rather good, Lady
Terms of critique and feedback be it friendly or in-depth. It all helps, certainly helped me and still does
remember also you can gain great insight into stuff by reading other people's critiques on other people's poetry. simply go to a poet's profile and click on comments. you'll figure out who can help you grow
i would recommend looking at some of Hemiheads/ deathproof, Silly Sibyl, Mr Alputram to start then dig around from there
Thank you for your support, Craic. Four years of solid critique coming from a place of knowledge and earnest desire to help others become better readers and you deliberately omit us as viable critiquers because of seemingly personal feelings.
This is one thing that needs balanced in DU: personal feelings vs professional ( or experienced ( God forbid I sound too educated) ) ability.
I understand some people take this very seriously, I'm a bit more laid back. If i wanted to be in college i'd probably be in college
don't let this stuff put you off. critiquing a poem isn't that difficult:
say how it makes you feel. say what worked for you, say what might not have worked for you. don't be a dick about it
Its all subjective sans spellings and technique. ypu're basically giving your opinion
anyhow, probably enough said on that matter in this thread
We do take critique seriously because it's what we do. We take it seriously because we understand that what we say can mold a writer. We are not dicks or assholes. And we're definitely not elitists. We're generous with our time and we're good at what we do because we've studied and practice and live it every day.
All one has to do is read our critiques to see that.
You are right about it being largely opinion with the exception of spelling and grammar ( unless intentional for purposes of dialect ).
Terms of critique and feedback be it friendly or in-depth. It all helps, certainly helped me and still does
remember also you can gain great insight into stuff by reading other people's critiques on other people's poetry. simply go to a poet's profile and click on comments. you'll figure out who can help you grow
i would recommend looking at some of Hemiheads/ deathproof, Silly Sibyl, Mr Alputram to start then dig around from there
Thank you for your support, Craic. Four years of solid critique coming from a place of knowledge and earnest desire to help others become better readers and you deliberately omit us as viable critiquers because of seemingly personal feelings.
This is one thing that needs balanced in DU: personal feelings vs professional ( or experienced ( God forbid I sound too educated) ) ability.
I understand some people take this very seriously, I'm a bit more laid back. If i wanted to be in college i'd probably be in college
don't let this stuff put you off. critiquing a poem isn't that difficult:
say how it makes you feel. say what worked for you, say what might not have worked for you. don't be a dick about it
Its all subjective sans spellings and technique. ypu're basically giving your opinion
anyhow, probably enough said on that matter in this thread
We do take critique seriously because it's what we do. We take it seriously because we understand that what we say can mold a writer. We are not dicks or assholes. And we're definitely not elitists. We're generous with our time and we're good at what we do because we've studied and practice and live it every day.
All one has to do is read our critiques to see that.
You are right about it being largely opinion with the exception of spelling and grammar ( unless intentional for purposes of dialect ).
Its not about omitting viable critiqers. the people i recommened are those who i've used myself.
when it comes to poetry I think you both value/ rate your opinion too highly. Thats just my opinion, and i mean no disrespect when i say it.
when it comes to poetry I think you both value/ rate your opinion too highly. Thats just my opinion, and i mean no disrespect when i say it.
lepperochan said:Its not about omitting viable critiqers. the people i recommened are those who i've used myself.
when it comes to poetry I think you both value/ rate your opinion too highly. Thats just my opinion, and i mean no disrespect when i say it.
I didn't receive it as disrespectful; it's merely your opinion. One you are entitled to and I'm sure many agree with. However, there are just as many who don't.
There is nothing wrong with being good at what you do,Craic. I never said I was the best. I certainly am not the best. But, I am good because I practice daily to perfect what I can do to help other writers become better. I try to improve on something every single day; to learn something new about critique or review because I strive to be better.
Just as I am sure you do on the Podcast.
I will never allow someone else's opinion nor elitist label sway me from that fact. And neither should you. No one should. I am not everyone's cup of tea. That's fine. It's the one's who enjoy my flavor that matter, and the rest are entitled to their opinions without me judging or labeling them.
when it comes to poetry I think you both value/ rate your opinion too highly. Thats just my opinion, and i mean no disrespect when i say it.
I didn't receive it as disrespectful; it's merely your opinion. One you are entitled to and I'm sure many agree with. However, there are just as many who don't.
There is nothing wrong with being good at what you do,Craic. I never said I was the best. I certainly am not the best. But, I am good because I practice daily to perfect what I can do to help other writers become better. I try to improve on something every single day; to learn something new about critique or review because I strive to be better.
Just as I am sure you do on the Podcast.
I will never allow someone else's opinion nor elitist label sway me from that fact. And neither should you. No one should. I am not everyone's cup of tea. That's fine. It's the one's who enjoy my flavor that matter, and the rest are entitled to their opinions without me judging or labeling them.
I meant to add
"though I'm sure others would feel different"
certainly not saying you're bad at what you do. like you say a lot of people pm you n such. you both sound very agressive in the way you talk yourselves up. neither of you have anything to prove
we all make up the site, and as such we all have something to offer. I like doing my bit for the podcast, it doesn't define me, and there a whole load of ways i can improve.
there are no personal feelings involved. you moght note i left Missy out also (and i k ow she's a very apt critiquer ) for the same reason : personal experiance
"though I'm sure others would feel different"
certainly not saying you're bad at what you do. like you say a lot of people pm you n such. you both sound very agressive in the way you talk yourselves up. neither of you have anything to prove
we all make up the site, and as such we all have something to offer. I like doing my bit for the podcast, it doesn't define me, and there a whole load of ways i can improve.
there are no personal feelings involved. you moght note i left Missy out also (and i k ow she's a very apt critiquer ) for the same reason : personal experiance
admin said:
I do appreciate your suggestions when they come from good place and I know that you want to help improve the site. I absolutely want this to be a place where serious writers can develop their skills and exchange quality critique.
I'm also mindful that this should be a welcoming and inclusive environment, where people at different writing levels and stages of their lives can be supported.
Also, that some people are simply more laid back in their approach.
Honestly, as long as people aren't using your site to harass others and are being treated fairly, we have nothing against laid back and people using the site as they please - for poetry, to socialize or otherwise.
And despite nonsense posted in this thread and perpetuated throughout DUP over the last 11 months, we wish the past and present directors of the current critique group nothing but success.
I do appreciate your suggestions when they come from good place and I know that you want to help improve the site. I absolutely want this to be a place where serious writers can develop their skills and exchange quality critique.
I'm also mindful that this should be a welcoming and inclusive environment, where people at different writing levels and stages of their lives can be supported.
Also, that some people are simply more laid back in their approach.
Honestly, as long as people aren't using your site to harass others and are being treated fairly, we have nothing against laid back and people using the site as they please - for poetry, to socialize or otherwise.
And despite nonsense posted in this thread and perpetuated throughout DUP over the last 11 months, we wish the past and present directors of the current critique group nothing but success.
Ahavati said:
Thank you for your response. It all seems a moot point now anyway.
agreed.
I'm not sure what else I could say to make my thoughts any clearer, ...I would like to address one thing though:
Ahavati said:No, it was forthcoming because of your inference that open accounts were biased and could take advantage of the system.
I said that people in general are biased -- and did not mean to infer anything specifically about open accounts. Hypothetically, multiple accounts could unwittingly take advantage of the proposed system simply because they would have more points.
appreciate the cordial response ✌️
Thank you for your response. It all seems a moot point now anyway.
agreed.
I'm not sure what else I could say to make my thoughts any clearer, ...I would like to address one thing though:
Ahavati said:No, it was forthcoming because of your inference that open accounts were biased and could take advantage of the system.
I said that people in general are biased -- and did not mean to infer anything specifically about open accounts. Hypothetically, multiple accounts could unwittingly take advantage of the proposed system simply because they would have more points.
appreciate the cordial response ✌️
lepperochan said:I meant to add
"though I'm sure others would feel different"
certainly not saying you're bad at what you do. like you say a lot of people pm you n such. you both sound very agressive in the way you talk yourselves up. neither of you have anything to prove
You're right; we have nothing to prove. Our support to members via our comments and critiques speak for us.
we all make up the site, and as such we all have something to offer. I like doing my bit for the podcast, it doesn't define me, and there a whole load of ways i can improve.
there are no personal feelings involved. you moght note i left Missy out also (and i k ow she's a very apt critiquer ) for the same reason : personal experiance
Duly noted. Mea Culpa.
I never said critique defined me as a person. I am also a writer, graphic design artist, social media management, mother, grandmother, friend, sister, and so forth. I try to improve on those daily as well. But, here, we are discussing critique.
Afterall, Craic, you are the one who makes light ( even laughs per some of your past comments ) of the monthly top critiquers and uses the term loosely. Johnny and I don't. We were earnestly attempting to implement something - to be a part of the solution vs. judging it via ridicule.
"though I'm sure others would feel different"
certainly not saying you're bad at what you do. like you say a lot of people pm you n such. you both sound very agressive in the way you talk yourselves up. neither of you have anything to prove
You're right; we have nothing to prove. Our support to members via our comments and critiques speak for us.
we all make up the site, and as such we all have something to offer. I like doing my bit for the podcast, it doesn't define me, and there a whole load of ways i can improve.
there are no personal feelings involved. you moght note i left Missy out also (and i k ow she's a very apt critiquer ) for the same reason : personal experiance
Duly noted. Mea Culpa.
I never said critique defined me as a person. I am also a writer, graphic design artist, social media management, mother, grandmother, friend, sister, and so forth. I try to improve on those daily as well. But, here, we are discussing critique.
Afterall, Craic, you are the one who makes light ( even laughs per some of your past comments ) of the monthly top critiquers and uses the term loosely. Johnny and I don't. We were earnestly attempting to implement something - to be a part of the solution vs. judging it via ridicule.
I think its wrong to suggest critique will mould a writer. again, critique is at best opinion or a perspective. a writer should seek many different perspectives and take what they can from them. I feel there's far too much importance being attached to critique, it's fairly common knowledge that practicing critique is of far greater assistance than receiving it, so in that respect you're really just helping yourself (though i'm not suggesting for a minute its intentional)
so, by you're own words you're awesome at it. good stuff it should eventually make you a much better writer (opinion) . I think the top critique system is flawed, I see the webmiss has addressed that on this thread
i'd like to be in a place where people just do what they can without all the self importance knocking around. the only thing difficult about critiquing a poem is the time needed. you both clearly have the time. I don't understand why you can't just do it and be quiet. ..humility
so, by you're own words you're awesome at it. good stuff it should eventually make you a much better writer (opinion) . I think the top critique system is flawed, I see the webmiss has addressed that on this thread
i'd like to be in a place where people just do what they can without all the self importance knocking around. the only thing difficult about critiquing a poem is the time needed. you both clearly have the time. I don't understand why you can't just do it and be quiet. ..humility
lepperochan said:I think its wrong to suggest critique will mould a writer. again, critique is at best opinion or a perspective. a writer should seek many different perspectives and take what they can from them. I feel there's far too much importance being attached to critique, it's fairly common knowledge that practicing critique is of far greater assistance than receiving it, so in that respect you're really just helping yourself (though i'm not suggesting for a minute its intentional)
Actually, Craic, it's been academically proven that critique helps writers improve their craft. I can provide reference links if you like. Additionally, there are many testimonies on our site from DU members as to how we've helped them become better writers. And, yes, I am helping myself every day by offering positive critique. It's one of the aforementioned ways I improve daily. I am not ashamed of that.
lepperochan said:so, by you're own words you're awesome at it. good stuff it should eventually make you a much better writer (opinion) . I think the top critique system is flawed, I see the webmiss has addressed that on this thread
No; actually, what I said was:
I never said I was the best. I certainly am not the best. But, I am good because I practice daily to perfect what I can do to help other writers become better. I try to improve on something every single day; to learn something new about critique or review because I strive to be better.
lepperochan said:i'd like to be in a place where people just do what they can without all the self importance knocking around. the only thing difficult about critiquing a poem is the time needed. you both clearly have the time. I don't understand why you can't just do it and be quiet. ..humility :)
Because this is a discussion thread in the suggestion forum where people actually discuss improvements to the site. And, also clarify misnomers, misquotes, and reminders of who actually ridicules site statistics and judges member's character vs being a part of the solution of improvements in a professional, or at least cordial manner.
That's why.
Actually, Craic, it's been academically proven that critique helps writers improve their craft. I can provide reference links if you like. Additionally, there are many testimonies on our site from DU members as to how we've helped them become better writers. And, yes, I am helping myself every day by offering positive critique. It's one of the aforementioned ways I improve daily. I am not ashamed of that.
lepperochan said:so, by you're own words you're awesome at it. good stuff it should eventually make you a much better writer (opinion) . I think the top critique system is flawed, I see the webmiss has addressed that on this thread
No; actually, what I said was:
I never said I was the best. I certainly am not the best. But, I am good because I practice daily to perfect what I can do to help other writers become better. I try to improve on something every single day; to learn something new about critique or review because I strive to be better.
lepperochan said:i'd like to be in a place where people just do what they can without all the self importance knocking around. the only thing difficult about critiquing a poem is the time needed. you both clearly have the time. I don't understand why you can't just do it and be quiet. ..humility :)
Because this is a discussion thread in the suggestion forum where people actually discuss improvements to the site. And, also clarify misnomers, misquotes, and reminders of who actually ridicules site statistics and judges member's character vs being a part of the solution of improvements in a professional, or at least cordial manner.
That's why.
"The podcast IS awesome - but so is what we do. "
as i understand it you run a site which charges money for critique...
provide the links (accademic) if you can, I'm genuinly interested. though, what i said was practicing critique is of more value.
as i understand it you run a site which charges money for critique...
provide the links (accademic) if you can, I'm genuinly interested. though, what i said was practicing critique is of more value.
lepperochan said:"The podcast IS awesome - but so is what we do. "
As Webmiss was referring to the podcast as being an awesome service in general, I was actually referring to critique being of the same service in general, not myself.
What I actually said ( in full context ) was this:
We are the same except in regards to critique. That does not make us elitist either. The podcast IS awesome - but so is what we do.
lepperochan said:as i understand it you run a site which charges money for critique...
It's sidejob from what we do professionally, and 50/50 actually. We do a lot of pro bono ( especially for DU members ) to help them improve. We also support DU through Napo, Classic Comps, and now book reviews, hoping to garner the readers a wider range of audience and drive new members to the site, as well as improve book sales. Much like the podcast is doing, I imagine.
provide the links (accademic) if you can, I'm genuinly interested. though, what i said was practicing critique is of more value.
Constructive criticism: A tool for improvement
https://go.galegroup.com/ps/anonymous?id=GALE%7CA66760571&sid=googleScholar&v=2.1&it=r&linkaccess=abs&issn=01463934&p=AONE&sw=w
What is Criticism
https://norek.pw/xe-vipe-m-fubyg-h.pdf
Happy reading. There are many more if you'd like to research a bit yourself.
Also, on our site we offer critique tips to keep such constructive. One of our principles has always been to slowly guide writers toward their own style of critique - all of this was laid out in our former critique group before opening our own site. We stated in multiple critiques and guidelines that critiquing can play an enormous part in growth as a writer.
http://poeticmedics.com/poetic_medics_poetry_critique_tips.html
Therefore, you are correct on that point; however, I believe them both to be equal and circular in that critiquing leads to better writing leads to better critiquing and so forth. Neither is more valuable than the other. You need fresh eyes on your work just as much as you need to practice being fresh eyes on the works of others.
As Webmiss was referring to the podcast as being an awesome service in general, I was actually referring to critique being of the same service in general, not myself.
What I actually said ( in full context ) was this:
We are the same except in regards to critique. That does not make us elitist either. The podcast IS awesome - but so is what we do.
lepperochan said:as i understand it you run a site which charges money for critique...
It's sidejob from what we do professionally, and 50/50 actually. We do a lot of pro bono ( especially for DU members ) to help them improve. We also support DU through Napo, Classic Comps, and now book reviews, hoping to garner the readers a wider range of audience and drive new members to the site, as well as improve book sales. Much like the podcast is doing, I imagine.
provide the links (accademic) if you can, I'm genuinly interested. though, what i said was practicing critique is of more value.
Constructive criticism: A tool for improvement
https://go.galegroup.com/ps/anonymous?id=GALE%7CA66760571&sid=googleScholar&v=2.1&it=r&linkaccess=abs&issn=01463934&p=AONE&sw=w
What is Criticism
https://norek.pw/xe-vipe-m-fubyg-h.pdf
Happy reading. There are many more if you'd like to research a bit yourself.
Also, on our site we offer critique tips to keep such constructive. One of our principles has always been to slowly guide writers toward their own style of critique - all of this was laid out in our former critique group before opening our own site. We stated in multiple critiques and guidelines that critiquing can play an enormous part in growth as a writer.
http://poeticmedics.com/poetic_medics_poetry_critique_tips.html
Therefore, you are correct on that point; however, I believe them both to be equal and circular in that critiquing leads to better writing leads to better critiquing and so forth. Neither is more valuable than the other. You need fresh eyes on your work just as much as you need to practice being fresh eyes on the works of others.
inechoingsilence said:I would be interested in knowing how close I am to the next ranking, and how I can achieve them. Also, what they mean (if anything). Thank you!
https://deepundergroundpoetry.com/question/7/
https://deepundergroundpoetry.com/question/7/
thanks. I read the first one. it appears to be a long winded definition of what criticism is in general. while I would call the author an academic, I see no reference to the value of either receiving critique or that of practicing it.
i'm interested to know what the great writers think and have said about it, I believe that would be a far better barometer.
see, the fact that critique is essentially a business for you and Johnny albeit a side business it would put your opinions on the subject in the 'vested interest' category. wouldn't you agree ? more power to you if people pay you for your opinion. I certainly wouldn't. I don't see either of you are in any way qualified. that said, I don't see anyone on this site qualified enough to ask for money for their opinion.
"we are the same except in regards to critique. That does not make us elitist either. The podcast IS awesome - but so is what we do."
way i see it, Webmiss gave the podcast a compliment. you gave yourself one. like you've both been doing throughout this thread. note the absense of anyone interjecting with even a paltry "yes, I have grown through the opinions of Av and Blaze" ..not one.
no doubt what you're doing here is a servise to writers, but its a tiny fraction of what they/ we need for growth. that's why i said you both value/ rate your opinions too highly
i'm interested to know what the great writers think and have said about it, I believe that would be a far better barometer.
see, the fact that critique is essentially a business for you and Johnny albeit a side business it would put your opinions on the subject in the 'vested interest' category. wouldn't you agree ? more power to you if people pay you for your opinion. I certainly wouldn't. I don't see either of you are in any way qualified. that said, I don't see anyone on this site qualified enough to ask for money for their opinion.
"we are the same except in regards to critique. That does not make us elitist either. The podcast IS awesome - but so is what we do."
way i see it, Webmiss gave the podcast a compliment. you gave yourself one. like you've both been doing throughout this thread. note the absense of anyone interjecting with even a paltry "yes, I have grown through the opinions of Av and Blaze" ..not one.
no doubt what you're doing here is a servise to writers, but its a tiny fraction of what they/ we need for growth. that's why i said you both value/ rate your opinions too highly
