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Ahavati
Ahavati
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lepperochan said:thanks. I read the first one. it appears to be a long winded definition of what criticism is in general. while I would call the author an academic, I see no reference to the value of either receiving critique  or that of practicing it.

From the article you read:

Constructive criticism is judgement given for the purposes of: (a) offering receivers external views of their performance to compare with self oriented views of their work; (b) helping the receiver recognize or interpret ways to improve past performances and/or ways to improve on future attempts; (c) demonstrating to receivers that their efforts merit judgment [as opposed to being ignored or distorted]; (4) showing genuine interest and appreciation for a receiver's effort; and (5) being encouraging, affirming, and supportive for the purpose of building confidence.

The above are ALL ways critique assists writers to become better. I believe that was your question.

i'm interested to know what the great writers think and have said about it, I believe that would be a far better barometer.

For you it may be - for me, the receipt of testimonials regarding how our critiques have helped writers improve their work in addition to scholarly articles is more than enough.  Actually, "Thank you for your honest critique" is enough.

For every quote from a writer denouncing critiques I can provide an alternative praising them via their mentors. Most of the greats had them and appreciated their mentorship.  So we can do the bible-verse exchange if you like.

lepperochan said:see, the fact that critique is essentially a business for you and Johnny albeit a side business it would put your opinions on the subject in the 'vested interest' category. wouldn't you agree ? more power to you if people pay you for your opinion. I certainly wouldn't. I don't see either of you are in any way qualified. that said, I don't see anyone on this site qualified enough to ask for money for their opinion.

No; I would not agree with that because we do not solicit membership. On the contrary, we donate to it.  We have our website published just as many do - the fact that we offer critique is irrelevant.  It's what we do whether you think we are qualified, genuinely assist, or not.  

lepperochan said:"we are the same except in regards to critique. That does not make us elitist either.  The podcast IS awesome - but so is what we do."

way i see it, Webmiss gave the podcast a compliment. you gave yourself one. like you've both been doing throughout this thread. note the absense of anyone interjecting with even a paltry "yes, I have grown through the opinions of Av and Blaze"  ..not one.


So you think people should jump in and take sides? Is that what you are saying? Because I don't. They don't have to jump in this thread - they thank us for our critiques on this site ( some just today, even! ) - they have provided testimonies to our contributions regarding their writing.  I don't expect them to reaffirm here.

This may come as a shock to you, Craic, but some people do not wish to become embroiled in a debate.  They don't need to - we have the proof of how they feel.

And as far as Webmiss, I think she quoted Johnny and told him she appreciated his suggestions when they came from a good place. And this one did despite how it was perceived. He was not judging the current critique group. He was stating a fact, as I subsequently relayed to the Webmiss in my response.  He was genuinely attempting to suggest something which might prove an incentive for people to critique.

lepperochan said:no doubt what you're doing here is a servise to writers, but its a tiny fraction of what they/ we need for growth. that's why i said you both value/ rate your opinions too highly


I in no way inferred that critique was the be-all way to improving writing, but it is a HUGE part of it.  Whether you are an "Oxford scholar" or self-taught - learning is required. And no man is an island.  We all need each other.

You are really good at cherry picking from my responses and strawmanning by inference, Craic.  However, I will give you huge credit: you don't hide comments or threads for personal reasons.  And you don't ban people for disagreeing with you or making you feel small.  

I attribute that to enough self-confidence that you refuse to allow others to make you feel small. That perhaps you realize someone's opinion of you is their business and a reflection of themselves, not you.  And perhaps, just perhaps, you enjoy good spirited debate.

Well, we can agree we're the same in those respects, at least.


lepperochan
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" We have our website published just as many do - the fact that we offer critique is irrelevant.  It's what we do whether you think we are qualified, genuinely assist, or not."  



I think its very relevant, haha. how could it not be.  you're not qualified. neither of you are."Thank you for your honest critique" is not a qualification. its manners.   self taught is not a qualification. its you telling yourself you're taught. I'm not trying to put you down, I'm trying to put this into context. your opinion is no better or worse than the next fellow

I wouldn't encourage people to jump in and take sides. I wasn't aware there was sides to take. but self praise is no praise at all.. so p'raps a bit of humility instead. there's plenty of people here who just critique without all the fanfare and whatnot


I'm here 8 and a half years. i've watched writers grow here with minimum critique. 80% of growth involves 2 things: reading and writing. lots of it. so there's no HUGE part left.  people's opinions are just that. i don't rate my opinion any better than yours, or the newbie who joined today.


cold_fusion
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Critique i believe is inherently honest and any critique that is not 100% honest is taking stabs for impure/biased reasons. So to me personally, the phrase "honest critique" is somewhat incorrect. I get it, when the site began there was the need to mention clearly to the bullies and so forth, that if ya're critiquing someone's work or requesting a critique please keep it honest. I get that. Yet once a person is settled at the site and know what's what... the need for the word "honest" before the critique becomes irrelevant coz it is naturally inferred it is honest.

Debates are good and serve a great public interest as long as they deal always with the subject and not get personal. Once they start getting personal it is a slippery slope as steep as El Capitan's bare face. They become counterproductive and lose the purpose. The negativity and bad atmosphere that is generated in perceived offence and one's defence spoils it for everyone. Heat is good for warming the house, englightening it- this is possible only when it is confined and kept in check otherwise too much and uncontrolled heat burns the place down, in this case the purpose of the thread.

Ahavati
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lepperochan said:" We have our website published just as many do - the fact that we offer critique is irrelevant.  It's what we do whether you think we are qualified, genuinely assist, or not."  

I think its very relevant, haha. how could it not be.  you're not qualified. neither of you are."Thank you for your honest critique" is not a qualification. its manners.


Craic, no one, least of all me, said being thanked was a measure of being a qualified critiquer.  That is not even a part of the above quote.

This is the quote you are referring to:

For you [ what the great writers think and have said about [critique] may be [important] - for me, the receipt of testimonials regarding how our critiques have helped writers improve their work in addition to scholarly articles is more than enough.  Actually, "Thank you for your honest critique" is enough.

That has absolutely NOTHING to do with whether or not that appreciation implies qualification. Nor did I say or even imply it did.  It simply demonstrates what the critique meant to the writer. Which was the point.

lepperochan said:self taught is not a qualification. its you telling yourself you're taught. I'm not trying to put you down, I'm trying to put this into context. your opinion is no better or worse than the next fellow

Firstly, what I actually said was this:

I in no way inferred that critique was the be-all way to improving writing, but it is a HUGE part of it. Whether you are an "Oxford scholar" or self-taught - learning is required. And no man is an island. We all need each other.

Secondly, I back that assertion up by referencing [s]ome of the self-made billionaires on the Forbes 400 Richest Americans List have something in common: they either did not go to college, or they dropped out of college.  

This list included Steve Jobs and I believe he was more than qualified to do what he did.  ( Google it yourself )

Not to mention some of the most famous authors were self-educated, e.g. - Shaw, Lovecraft, Wells, London, Twain, and Austen ( gotta throw a lady in there ) to name a few.

So, yeah, self-taught has historically been a qualification.


lepperochan said:I wouldn't encourage people to jump in and take sides. I wasn't aware there was sides to take. but self praise is no praise at all.. so p'raps a bit of humility instead. there's plenty of people here who just critique without all the fanfare and whatnot

I don't consider referencing testimonies nor responses to our critiques self-praise, Craic.  Anymore than I consider referencing non-educated authors or scholarly articles validating the importance of critique self-praise.  A reference is just that - a reference.

Your slippery slope fallacy implies that if no members feel obligated to hop in this thread and validate what they have already said publicly then my critiques are discredited.  Thank goodness they don't feel pressured to do that because they've already made it public where it counts.

lepperochan said:I'm here 8 and a half years. i've watched writers grow here with minimum critique. 80% of growth involves 2 things: reading and writing. lots of it. so there's no HUGE part left.  people's opinions are just that. i don't rate my opinion any better than yours, or the newbie who joined today.

No one has, Craic.  Least of all me.  We've merely defined critique largely as opinion. And we've also defined opinion as the ability to have one.

Have a nice evening.

Ahavati
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cold_fusion said:Critique i believe is inherently honest and any critique that is not 100% honest is taking stabs for impure/biased reasons. So to me personally, the phrase "honest critique" is somewhat incorrect. I get it, when the site began there was the need to mention clearly to the bullies and so forth, that if ya're critiquing someone's work or requesting a critique please keep it honest. I get that. Yet once a person is settled at the site and know what's what... the need for the word "honest" before the critique becomes irrelevant coz it is naturally inferred it is honest.

Debates are good and serve a great public interest as long as they deal always with the subject and not get personal. Once they start getting personal it is a slippery slope as steep as El Capitan's bare face. They become counterproductive and lose the purpose. The negativity and bad atmosphere that is generated in perceived offence and one's defence spoils it for everyone. Heat is good for warming the house, englightening it- this is possible only when it is confined and kept in check otherwise too much and uncontrolled heat burns the place down, in this case the purpose of the thread.


I agree. The negativity has been pervasive at times.

To anyone that I may have offended or scared into not critiquing on this site I apologize.  That was never my intention, and certainly not the legacy I would like to leave.

lepperochan
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I must read the first link again. and thanks for posting it and for the time you put into laying out your opinions/ beliefs


@cold fusion

i think, when going back and forward with a person its important to know who you're going back and forward with. the lady is well able to hold her own. I doubt she was offended by anything i said, and i certainly wasn't offended by anything she said

there was some things i picked up wrong and vice versa, but all in i thought it was a decent enough exchange

where third parties may take offence, i believe its up to them to get over it.

cold_fusion
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lepperochan said:I must read the first link again. and thanks for posting it and for the time you put into laying out your opinions/ beliefs


@cold fusion

i think, when going back and forward with a person its important to know who you're going back and forward with. the lady is well able to hold her own. I doubt she was offended by anything i said, and i certainly wasn't offended by anything she said

there was some things i picked up wrong and vice versa, but all in i thought it was a decent enough exchange

where third parties may take offence, i believe its up to them to get over it.


never said you offended her or she offended you Craic. And yes i do agree debates can get a bit 'robust'.

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In an effort to bring this back on topic, and find a consensus on the original issue raised, I have created this poll https://deepundergroundpoetry.com/forum/suggestions/read/10887/ which deals with how reading list entries are accrued.

Blackwolf
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As  far as critique , I care not for what anyone says or thinks of my poetry it is mine ,  my thoughts , feelings and expression , and I care in no way what anyone thinks of it in the end of it all , good , bad or ugly

That is the real secret of any great writer...

Do what you do best and fuck all other opinion

It is my expression of my inner self , and that is what really matters...

Any other opinions can stick their head in the toilet and flush as far as I am concerned...

PS : I have a strong Irish background so please ignore any offense taken

Blackwolf
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Thank you for your care , Webmistress

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