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Jazz is where the genius lies

ajay
Fire of Insight
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Joined 21st Mar 2023
Forum Posts: 1009

I still don't understand why we have to make the comparison, Robert. There's much more vitamin C in an orange than there is in an apple, for example, but that doesn't preclude my enjoyment of an apple. Why can't we enjoy them both for what they are in themselves:  different, not superior or inferior.

Best wishes.

Robert
Robert Oliva
Twisted Dreamer
United States
Joined 25th Nov 2023
Forum Posts: 42

And all the kids should get   at trophy. Iím gonna tell you a story itís exactly true in Chicago. Does this little club and 75th St. the other place at Tuesday night they would have jam sessions were the very best and jazz that were either traveling through the city or residence of would be there and have these jam sessions that were just so, anyway afterwards I said DJ jazz so I know these guys and I could hang around when the club close, and they have like a round table discussion where I would sit and just being in awe of these masters Von and Chico Freeman, LD Young more about to top my head that you may or may not know but they are elite, so thereís one kid that used to be on the jazz circuit and he sort of disappeared. I was sudden doesnít knock on the door and they let them in, and the old guys were teasing him because he hasnít been around for a while. His nickname was munch, and he was obviously in all in respect of these guys at the table and he sat there quietly never once a while they would throw a joke at them  Like where you been and all that stuff if either he admitted that he had to take a gig in a rock band because of the pay he just couldnít he couldnít pass it up. They kind of like OK they got it but not really approving of it, and he was apologetic about it like he knew he felt at least in their eyes that he had sold out  Anyway after while they would go back to more questions for somebody, I apologize dear much about the style of music and how he had a dumb down his playing and he was a great great bass player by the way in jazz and all these other like apologies, almost in view of the masters to sort of win their approval so I said what band are you with and his name was Darrell Jones nickname was Mike and he said well. Iím the bass player of the Rolling Stones right now and thatís true. True story heís a apologizing for coming down his music , and perhaps the greatest one the greatest rock bands of all time and heís apologizing for dumping down his his capability of play in the music Darryl Jones heís a good friend of mine. Heís still the bass player of the Rolling Stones not thatís a true story and thatís a testimony that you werenít there and you take my word for it but that is why I believe where I believe it comes from the very mouth of the people that are in that industry. Just read a little bit and youíll find it  And yeah we can all exist in McDonaldís can existed so weíre soaking your shade but if you gonna have to write them in one day, we all wait. We choose a miss America. We get a World Series champion. Itís the way we are in America when we do that. Itís the guys that are on top  Indisputably on top

ajay
Fire of Insight
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Joined 21st Mar 2023
Forum Posts: 1009

That's all very well, Robert, but it still doest answer my question as to why we can't listen to all types of music without making invidious comparisons between genres while we're doing so. As I said a couple of posts back, I like jazz. However, I also like Bach and the Beatles. When I'm listening to Miles, I'm listening to Miles; when I'm listening to Bach, I'm listening to Bach; when I'm listening to the Beatles, I'm listening to the Beatles. At no point during my listening to one of them am I making comparisons with any of the others. I don't understand why you feel the need to do so. I simply enjoy them for what they are in themselves. Why can't you?

Best wishes.

Robert
Robert Oliva
Twisted Dreamer
United States
Joined 25th Nov 2023
Forum Posts: 42

You are putting words in my mouth people go McDonaldís they can go to shape parade. I can listen to rock music they can listen to country music. Itís all fine with me however, if you put them in line, I look at it this way and this is going to really piss most people off I just think I figured shit out and other people donít let them run around the mud and muck around if they like it itís like this when you listen to Dolly Parton sing That Whitney Houston song from the bodyguard I will always love you tell you a nice job, but can you listen to Whitney do it get that hard to quantify difference needs to be recognized Whitney saying that song and killed that level no matter how good Ollie did it now that doesnít mean Iím not getting anybody from listening to Dolly Parton but racking jazz is just like that. What a jazz musician can do . Anything that a rock musician can do is immediately improve it, and they can just like listen to the record and just play it now it would take OK here. Iíll tell you story. Miles Davis was getting interviewed by Rolling Stone when he was chic again in like the late 60s maybe 1970 they said their best reporter over to interview miles and he did it cause his label kind of told him he had to so this reporter is making the air of filtering his questions true  Rock stars like Miles. What do you think of Led Zeppelin? What do you think of the what do you think of whoever these bands were were at the time that were at the top and miles were answered like they all right? OK yeah all right finally just reporter. Get some patient. He said hey man, these are the best rock heist of all time and thatís all you could say are they all right ? Miles was an impatient man. He stands up on the desk and he says itís like this motherfucker, he says you play that shit for me and I will bring you a cat in 20 minutes that will play it then I will play John Coltrane for you and Iíll give you a year and that my friend is the difference .

DaisyGrace
Dangerous Mind
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Joined 29th Mar 2017
Forum Posts: 1323

Robert said: thank you for listening, sir with much respect. Have a very good day .


BobbyO, if you are going to misgender me, I prefer you call me Daddy.

Anyway, if you want anecdotes about different types of musicians talking about how they wished they could play like other musicians, I have lots and lots. You aren't the only one with stories. I once performed a marimba concerto and didn't know cindy blackman was in the audience. Afterwards, when I was fangirling and telling her how much I loved her work, she said "what you do is elite percussion. What I do is just fun."

I am a classically trained musician (one that would have been considered elite at one time) who has rubbed elbows with all sorts of musicians (who never once bad mouthed another genre or any other musician), traveled the world making music, and playing in orchestras, jazz ensembles, percussion ensembles, choirs, chamber ensembles, and a I've even played a couple of rock and country gigs. I have composed and arranged for percussion ensembles as well as wind band. I have recorded an album of original songs where I played guitar, vibraphone, djembe, and sang. I was a studio musician for a small recording studio. I have great respect for self-taught musicians as well as those that studied classically or with mentors of their chosen genre.

I cannot talk about Michael Jordan, as I don't play or follow basketball. Of course I know his name and that he was a successful basketball player and that he's probably a very savvy business man and a millionaire. But when it comes right down to it, I don't know what Michael Jordan, or basketball, have to do with this conversation. But, I'll play along.

You say that seeing with your own eyes, and by listening to experts you have come to trust, you can say that MJ was/is the greatest basketball player. I would wager that his success came from hard work, practice to always be better, and the fact that he could play well with a team. And a good PR person. He rose to the top because he was good. Really good. Because he was good (and did everything in his power to stay one top), he became a commercial success. That same logic can be applied to the Beatles. I have heard with my ears, watched/listened to a ton of commentary, and listened to experts in the music industry talk about how and why they are successful. They were good, they practiced and worked to be better and better, they finally had a song make it big, and then they became a commercial success. Of course Paul McCartney is going to say jazz influenced him. Jazz influenced so many musicians, of all genres. He was also influenced by Little Richard, Buddy Holly, and Elvis Presley.

Wynton Marsalis (a jazz trumpet player for those reading along, but don't know the name) won a grammy for an instrumental album of trumpet concertos by Haydn, Hummel, and Mozart with the National Philharmonic. I doubt he would have recorded those if he hadn't been influenced by classical music at some point in his life.

Musicians are inspired by all genres. Especially when it's good. Just like visual artists are inspired by all types of visual art and writers are all inspired by all types of writing.

Robert said:Truth is that a listing of most talented over the lady 60 years thst mot one Rock musician breaks the top fifty. Shed your bias and open your ears. The talented by a wide margin reside in jazz.

I'm still waiting for this list. I couldn't find one.

Robert said:And all the kids should get   at trophy.  

Music genres aren't in competition with each other. There is no trophy for the best one. People like what they like. They listen to what they like. They buy what they like.

Just because jazz isn't as popular of a genre doesn't make it superior. That would be like me saying poets who write formal poetry are superior to poets who write free verse.

I am not telling you that you can't like jazz above all other genres. I'm telling you that stating your opinion as fact is wrong. This entire thread boils down what kind of music you like the best and just because you like it best doesn't mean that it is superior to anything else.

You said this in your country music thread:
Robert said:besides explaining how the music irks me I also believe itís easy to classiffy  significant bunch of country fans as anti music cultists so devoid of logic that their clicheí protestations eventually end with some form of ďitís what I likeĒ

There's nothing wrong with saying any form of "it's what I like." Michael Jordan got really good at basketball because it's what he liked. Miles Davis got good at trumpet (even with all his widely known missed notes) because it's what he liked. I got really good at playing marimba over drum set because it's what I liked.

There have been a million times where I have said I liked something, but couldn't really tell you why. Most people do not have the music verbiage/knowledge to tell you why they like the music they like. The average person can't talk about chord changes, key changes, runs, chromatic scales, arpeggios, time signature changes, charts, half valves, etc etc etc. They just know they like it when they hear it.

I really like my friend's style of art. She works mostly with watercolors. I know she has developed a certain technique for layering color that other people have adopted, but I can't talk about it, other than to say that I like it because it pleases me when I look at it. It doesn't make me "devoid of logic" (as you called country music fans)  because I don't know the right words to tell you why I like her style.

Maybe you are different. Maybe you only listen to music that experts, and your own ears, say is superior. But it's still your opinion. Experts, the world over, do not agree on anything when it comes to Art (of any kind). Some say Miles Davis wasn't that great of a player. Some say he was the top of the field. Some experts say emily dickinson had no clue what she was doing. Some experts say she was a genius.

Robert said:itís like this when you listen to Dolly Parton sing That Whitney Houston song from the bodyguard I will always love you tell you a nice job, but can you listen to Whitney do it get that hard to quantify difference needs to be recognized Whitney saying that song and killed that level no matter how good Ollie did it

It was originally a Dolly Parton song that Whitney was allowed to sing. How dare you call it that Whitney song. Dolly Parton is a queen and deserves the proper recognition. I love both versions, but prefer Whitney's. You are right, she killed it. But again, it's different genres. My father, also a musician, prefers Dolly's version because he prefers his music to have the least amount of vocal aerobics as possible. He likes clean vocals, isn't a huge fan of people belting, and he might have a crush on Dolly.

Again, it's apples vs. oranges. The same song done two completely different ways. Some people prefer Dolly's original version, some people prefer Whitney's.

DaisyGrace
Dangerous Mind
United States 16awards
Joined 29th Mar 2017
Forum Posts: 1323

never mind. I added this post to my other post.

Robert
Robert Oliva
Twisted Dreamer
United States
Joined 25th Nov 2023
Forum Posts: 42

Now you went off the rails. I didnít call it a Whitney song I said the singer who sings the song the best is Whitney. Thatís much different statement. You have missed quoted me and put words in my mouth very often and this little tater Tae weíre having I donít understand that cause youíre really bright but I guess you think thatís a shortcut to show that youíre right listen, jazz musicians are way better and hereís another thing to put down as a reason. If you went to all the musicians ever that ever played with Miles Davis, there are nobody there is nobody that is beneath an excellent standard, but if you went through rock music, just places to hide there for an average musician, the standards are different. You can fake it and rock Iím not saying they all do Iím not even giving you a percentage, but the fact that you can fake it and rock, and you cannot fake it in the jazz truly separates the two genres in a meaningful way that you somehow think itís OK to ignore. Itís not. That is my point it is standards  And I guess your background is great but thereís no doubt to jazz musician is going to be 99% of the time way better. And by the way, sorry for the typo in the miss gender I actually didnít know that I donít know. I mightíve been confused who I was replying to. These threads are new to me and how I follow the line is an exact.

Ahavati
Tyrant of Words
United States 116awards
Joined 11th Apr 2015
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All this talk of Jazz reminds me of how much I miss Dan Kozak, a DU Icon.

https://youtu.be/EHDvIrxcjPE?feature=shared

ajay
Fire of Insight
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Joined 21st Mar 2023
Forum Posts: 1009

Robert said:
You can fake it and rock Iím not saying they all do Iím not even giving you a percentage, but the fact that you can fake it and rock, and you cannot fake it in the jazz truly separates .


Hi again, Robert.

Sorry to butt in. (I'm an Aries.🙃). Just so I know where you're coming from, could you give me an example, please, of a rock musician/group who is 'faking it', as you put it. I honestly don't know what you mean.

Best wishes.


DaisyGrace
Dangerous Mind
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Joined 29th Mar 2017
Forum Posts: 1323

I was just joking about the misgendering thing. I didn't mind at all. I just thought it was funny.

I didn't put words in your mouth. The section of your post that I 'quoted' in my post about Dolly has you saying That Whitney Houston song from the body guard. If you didn't mean it that way, that's fine. But that isn't what you wrote. Go back and read it. "itís like this when you listen to Dolly Parton sing That Whitney Houston song from the bodyguard." Those are your exact words. I was also joking during that part. I should take better care of my words so that it comes across better.

Now, since you think I'm saying it's okay to overlook 'standards,' I want to ask you a question. What standards are we going by? The experts you keep talking about? The experts I keep talking about? Do we measure the standards by how well someone plays an instrument? How well they play technically or how emotional they are when they play? Emotion can cover up a whole lot of sins. As can all the flashy stuff that miles (and lots of other players) so often tried to do/create. Do we use commercial success as the standard? Classically trained versus self-taught?

I can agree that there are often average musicians in rock and country. But I can also point you in the direction of lots of those musicians who are classically trained: Rick Wakeman, Danny Carey, Brendan Small, Michael Angelo Batio, the Van Halen brothers, Chris Broderick, Frank Zappa (and many of the people who played in his band), Cindy Blackman, Zoro, etc. Some of those names I would put up there in the genius category.

I'd also put lots of composers up there in the genius category: Bach, Beethoven, The Russian Five, Verdi, the Schumanns, and Mozart. Instrumentalists in the 'classical' world could be in the genius category as well: Henrich Schiff (cello), Greg Wing (trumpet), David Oyen (bassoon), Keiko Abe (marimba/percussion), and Niccolo Paganini (violin). Just to name a few

I am not overlooking standards. I am simply saying that stating "Jazz is where the genius lies," is an opinion and not a fact. Experts, in any genre, will take umbrage with that statement. Point me in the direction of an expert (who is not a jazz person) that agrees with you. Point me in the direction of the standards that you seem to think make up the difference between jazz and rock.

edited to add: I don't think I have gone off the rails. I have been addressing points that you brought up.

ajay
Fire of Insight
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Joined 21st Mar 2023
Forum Posts: 1009

DaisyGrace said:
I'd also put lots of composers up there in the genius category: [...] The Russian Five,  


Surely not?

Robert
Robert Oliva
Twisted Dreamer
United States
Joined 25th Nov 2023
Forum Posts: 42

All members of the Eagles   Thre LP Hotel California was Pablum  on many levels. Ken Cheney , pianist on the famed song Tjhe Soulful Strut broke it down for me illustrating how songs were built on simplistic chords that require only rudimentary skill and even less imagination. ďSuch a lovely dayĒ. Indefensible charlatans.

DaisyGrace
Dangerous Mind
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Joined 29th Mar 2017
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ajay said:

Surely not?


Letís not get off topic, ajay!

ajay
Fire of Insight
England 2awards
Joined 21st Mar 2023
Forum Posts: 1009

DaisyGrace said:

Letís not get off topic, Ajay!

Yes, dear

ajay
Fire of Insight
England 2awards
Joined 21st Mar 2023
Forum Posts: 1009

Robert said:All members of the Eagles   Thre LP Hotel California was Pablum  on many levels. Ken Cheney , pianist on the famed song Tjhe Soulful Strut broke it down for me illustrating how songs were built on simplistic chords that require only rudimentary skill and even less imagination. ďSuch a lovely dayĒ. Indefensible charlatans.

There's nothing wrong with simple chords if they produce a great melody. For example, the chords in the song below, if my ear doesn't deceive me, are C, G Am, Fmaj7, F6, F, E, Dm.
Simple chords, right? Here's the link. Click on it and have a listen..
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QDYfEBY9NM4&pp=ygURbGV0IGl0IGJlIGJlYXRsZXM%3D
Fantastic song! No?


Moving on, below is 'Prince of Darkness' from Miles' 'Sorcerer' album. Click on it and have a listen.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KUGqD0VmTIQ&list=OLAK5uy_kwBIY2OWr_I1CycV7bGcc5_qeZD9Bg4uo&index=1&pp=8AUB
A fine cut, no doubt, but structurally it's head/solos on the chords/head and out. Nothing complicated there. Standard (boring?) jazz format.


Now here's Bach's Concert for Two Violins in Dm. Click on it and have a listen.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1_T7D8rGOc&pp=ygUiY29uY2VybyBmb3IgdHdvIHZpb2xpbnMgYmFjaCBtYW56ZQ%3D%3D

Now I'm sure you'll agree that compositionally, melodically, harmonically, contrapuntally and technically the Bach is far, far superior to both the Beatles' and the Miles' cuts. Does that mean we should listen only to Bach and pour scorn on the Beatles and Miles? Of course it doesn't. As I've said before, I can't understand why you can't enjoy a piece of music for what it is. Technical proficiency isn't the only criterion. Open your ears!

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