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Jazz is where the genius lies

Robert
Robert Oliva
Twisted Dreamer
United States
Joined 25th Nov 2023
Forum Posts: 42


Jazz is an acquired taste and isnít for everybody. It maintains a standoffish presence by adopting an elite posture that becomes fun from an insiders view. Jazz musicians look at rock musicians as people who lack the talent and innovation to play jazz. Typically a Jazz pro can listen to a rock song once snd just play it.

DaisyGrace
Dangerous Mind
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Joined 29th Mar 2017
Forum Posts: 1323

You've made some big, sweeping statements about music over the last couple of days. You've made them as statements of fact, but they are just opinions. And, in my opinion, wrong. In this post alone, there is only one thing that might be considered a 'fact' and that is that jazz is an acquired taste. The rest is opinion. Every jazz musician that I know, and I know lots of them, are the opposite of standoffish, and they sure as hell would never say that rock musicians are people who lack talent and innovation.

Many studio musicians, of all genres, can hear a song and play it right back. That's because they have spent time training their ear, learning music theory, and know basic chord structures. Hell, I'm not that great of a guitar player (I am a musician), but if someone plays and sings a song, I can pick up a guitar and play right along with them and probably add harmony to the vocals. For those that may not know what a studio musician is, they are musicians employed by the studio where an artist is recording. They are not part of the artist's band. They are fill-ins if the record label doesn't want to use the artist's band or if they are a solo act with no band. Many times recording artist's bands are not the band you hear on a recording and won't be the band you see performing on stage. They only play in the studio.

As for your miles davis post, he was very influential, I'll give you that. He had his hands on just about every iteration of jazz that we can think of. He's influenced countless musicians. But I would hesitate to say that his influence has had more impact than anyone in history. If you want to be really technical, I'd say that Pythagoras has had the most impact on music since he was the one that developed the octave scale. Which is the basic foundation of all music theory that we still use today.

Now, country music. I agree there are some questionable things happening in that genre, in my opinion. I don't like the song "she thinks my tractor's sexy" and many others. You haven't listened to it all, though. You've made a decision and left it alone without really digging in to find out if you are right. Of course there is old country that is fantastic, but there are lots of new artists who make killer music, have very good lyrics, and have their finger on the pulse of current events and history.

In my opinion, 'she thinks my tractor's sexy' sits in the same spot as lots of other music about silly things. How many rock songs are there about cars? Or trying to have sex with some hot woman? Or being hot for teacher or about pouring some sugar on me or fat bottom girls? The ridiculousness goes on in all genres of music.

Anyway, whatever your point was with the posts you made, it's lost on me. Making broad statements about people rarely do anyone a service.  Your posts seem troll-bait-ish to me, but I thought I'd play along for a few minutes.

Robert
Robert Oliva
Twisted Dreamer
United States
Joined 25th Nov 2023
Forum Posts: 42

You have obvious  intelligence but I stand by my statements regarding the chasm of talent between rock elite and jazz elite. Itís not likely that the Jazz musicians you know are elite. Watch the Chasing Trane documentary where McCartney, Carlos Santana , Eric Clapton speak in awe of the Genre and are honest about relative talent   Truth is that a listing of most talented over the lady 60 years thst mot one Rock musician breaks the top fifty. Shed your bias and open your ears. The talented by a wide margin reside in jazz.

DaisyGrace
Dangerous Mind
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Joined 29th Mar 2017
Forum Posts: 1323

You can stand by the statement. That's fine with me. I'll just keep thinking you are wrong. Comparing jazz musicians to rock musicians (or country or rap or whatever) is like comparing apples to oranges. They are all musicians, but they are all different. I don't have a bias. I am not denying that there is talent in the jazz genre. There is talent in all genres of music. I played vibraphone in a jazz band in college, and a quartet after I graduated. I do not consider myself elite, but I am trained. I'm not sure what you consider 'elite,' but the jazz musicians I know are in bands, have recording deals, travel the world for concerts, compose, play in television show bands, are in movies and on their soundtracks, play on broadway, are in military bands, etc etc etc.

Different skills are required in different genres. People who play in professional symphonies are talented and require different skills than someone who plays country professionally. People who play rock are talented and require different skills than a rap artist. People who play country are talented and require a different skill set than someone who plays jazz.  

Robert
Robert Oliva
Twisted Dreamer
United States
Joined 25th Nov 2023
Forum Posts: 42

Watch that Chasing Trane it makes the point better than I.

ajay
Fire of Insight
England 2awards
Joined 21st Mar 2023
Forum Posts: 1010

Robert said:Jazz is an acquired taste and isnít for everybody. It maintains a standoffish presence by adopting an elite posture that becomes fun from an insiders view. Jazz musicians look at rock musicians as people who lack the talent and innovation to play jazz. Typically a Jazz pro can listen to a rock song once snd just play it.

Hi, Robert.
You're missing the point. Rock music isn't about technical proficiency; it's about writing f*cking good tunes. eg:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bc0KhhjJP98&pp=ygUXY29tZSBhbmQgZ2V0IHlvdXIgbG92ZSA%3D
As Daisy said in her second post in this thread, comparing the two genres is akin to comparing apples with oranges.

Regards.

PS Technically speaking, Miles wasn't very good, but it didn't do him any harm, did it?


Robert
Robert Oliva
Twisted Dreamer
United States
Joined 25th Nov 2023
Forum Posts: 42

Nope. Listen to Miles on  Walkiní , that bullshit about his play is pandered only by the ignorant. And youíre very wrong about the relative abilities. Eric Clapton  and Carlos Santana are two of the many that speak to the obvious superior virtuosity of the Jazz masters. You suffer from a defensive posture w confirmation bias and the stuff you said is laughable and totally without merit  

ajay
Fire of Insight
England 2awards
Joined 21st Mar 2023
Forum Posts: 1010

Robert said:Nope. Listen to Miles on  Walkiní , that bullshit about his play is pandered only by the ignorant. And youíre very wrong about the relative abilities. Eric Clapton  and Carlos Santana are two of the many that speak to the obvious superior virtuosity of the Jazz masters. You suffer from a defensive posture w confirmation bias and the stuff you said is laughable and totally without merit  

Sorry, Robert. Despite me being ignorant the fact remains that compared to such trumpeters as Pops, Freddie Hubbard, Wynton Marsalis etc., Miles was strictly second division. As an aside, I should say that I own every Miles' album from the Birth of the Cool to Star People Ė I lost interest after that Ė so I think it's a little unfair to call me ignorant.

As far as my main point and Daisy's is concerned re the absurdity of making comparisons between the two genres, well, you've misunderstood us, I'm afraid. That the average jazz musician is better technically than the average rock musician is obviously true, but it is beside the point. Rock music is not about technical proficiency, it's about writing great tunes, hence the pointlessness of your comparison. Rock and Jazz are both worthwhile and I enjoy them both.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OnDu1HHOo78&pp=ygUKZHJpZnQgYXdheQ%3D%3D

Regards


Robert
Robert Oliva
Twisted Dreamer
United States
Joined 25th Nov 2023
Forum Posts: 42

No worries.

badmalthus
Harry Rout
Dangerous Mind
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Joined 3rd May 2014
Forum Posts: 433

Bach...Mozart...Vivaldi...Tchaikovsky...Clara Schuman...Beethoven...now they are the genius.

ajay
Fire of Insight
England 2awards
Joined 21st Mar 2023
Forum Posts: 1010

badmalthus said:Bach...Mozart...Vivaldi...Tchaikovsky...Clara Schuman...Beethoven...now they are the genius.
Amen to that. 👍🙃

badmalthus
Harry Rout
Dangerous Mind
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Joined 3rd May 2014
Forum Posts: 433

ajay said:
Amen to that. 👍🙃


Yes indeed!

Robert
Robert Oliva
Twisted Dreamer
United States
Joined 25th Nov 2023
Forum Posts: 42

You sir are a genius.

DaisyGrace
Dangerous Mind
United States 16awards
Joined 29th Mar 2017
Forum Posts: 1323

Robert said:Watch that Chasing Trane it makes the point better than I.

No amount of documentary watching will make me think that jazz is where all the genius lies. I can agree that there is genius/talent in jazz. I can agree that great musical innovations have taken place in the genre. But those things also take place in every genre of music: rock, country, jazz, instrumental, choral, opera, etc etc etc. Just because you like a specific genre a whole big lot does not mean that your opinion invalidates every other genre and the music that is produced in it.

You've mentioned a list of the top 50 greatest artists of the last however many years and that not a single rock player features. What list are you talking about? Point me in the right direction to find it. When I google "greatest musicians of the last 60 years" people like Jimi Hendrix, Van Halen, the Beatles, the Supremes, Hank Williams, Frank Sinatra, Sam Cooke, Willie Nelson, and lots of jazz cats show up.

The thing about lists like that, of course, is that they are all biased. Whoever compiles the list will be influenced by what they like. Unless you go by commercial success. If that's the case, The Beatles are still (as far as I know) the best selling artists of all time, followed by Michael Jackson and Elvis Presley. If you want the most commercially successful jazz artist of all time, you'd have to give that to Kenny G (according to the Guinness World Book of Records). Miles Davis has the best selling record with Kind of Blue.  


Robert
Robert Oliva
Twisted Dreamer
United States
Joined 25th Nov 2023
Forum Posts: 42

What if somebody used a similar persuasive argument to convince you that Michael Jordan wasnít far and away above other NBA players?  My  own eyes , as well the analysis of experts Iíve come to trust and have passed the test of time with no bias or agenda. It would be easy and justifiable to dismiss any claims that dilute the greatness of MJ.  The commentary concerning Jazz is parallel to the MJ  one with the inclusion of a burden placed on the Genre that limits its reach into the mainstream. Ironically it is that factor that significantly contributed to its greatness both in concept  and its roster of World class talent. Jazz is purposely elite as its nuance does not transfer to 50,000 people in a stadium but rather itís best enjoyed in smaller intimate settings. Hence one had to  dig to uncover and discover the truth , I get what youíre saying but think of the few that can accurately describe the genius of an  Einstein, or hawking, or Offerman. Itís a small amount of experts that can properly relay judge. An accurately establish the expertise of such an elite group. The arguments that you put forth Pass considered any of those factors and in fact, itís like why is McDonaldís or Dominoís the most popular thatís about what your argument was saying itís just doesnít stand up to any judgment of any expertise at any level that looks at it with, an unbiased view you said point to I didnít several my other statements in the same thread and clearly you werenít interested enough to read that but if you watch the video or the documentary chasing train you were here, Paul McCartney, Carlos Santana, and Eric Clapton essentially state almost exactly what I put for these are gods of rock and they are  humbled by jazz musicians and freely admit so thatís a good place to start for experts through your own people and just plenty more like that and thereís plenty of books and you know jazz expertise and youíll see him and if you spent just 20 minutes did you know this is no doubt about the level of talent that is so thereís a disparity thatís incredible and itís just not recognize because of the method used by those who offer arguments as you did  look mean no insult itís just a fact just like the Canadians are better than hockey I mean we can know like maybe somebody will catch up eventually or like the NBA was dominated by Americans until others caught up. Itís a process itís a practice itís a commitment and rock comes nowhere near close to establishing , the excellence and expertise to the jazz musician is filtered through. I can go out or not. Itís just true to the to the chasing train. Read the book kind of blue take a look at the Chronicles of jazz take a look at what rock musicians that are not full of themselves Jerry Garcia for one he pattern all his music after Miles Davis and that was the beginning of origin  of his band and he freely admit that he could never catch up to that anyway thatís my point I stand on my argument and youíre like telling me MJ isnít good enough thatís what I hear when I hear all that stuff you said thank you for listening, sir with much respect. Have a very good day .

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