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allowing anti-vaccine is irresponsible

fiveamtuesday
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EdibleWords said:

Ok...

INFORMED CONSENT means free access to personally investigate all sides of a discussion, and any relevant information or opinions, agreed?



Yes, but if you think the people providing the medicine, or the scientists researching and designing the vaccines, are lying to you for whatever reason then I guess that's your own prerogative.

EdibleWords
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fiveamtuesday said:

Yes, but if you think the people providing the medicine, or the scientists researching and designing the vaccines, are lying to you for whatever reason then I guess that's your own prerogative.


It’s a more nuanced discussion in reality, but I’ll take it.

ITS definitely our prerogative to be diverse in opinion in a free nation. 👍👍

anna_grin
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fiveamtuesday said:I was diagnosed with asthma when I was 3 years old. This is a picture of my medication/treatment.

the discussion I have seen on these forums about vaccination, and how the site allows people to deny them, is unacceptable.

I have been hospitalized on numerous occasions throughout my life due to my respiratory condition. My longest stay in a hospital was 3 days, where I was averaging ~40-50 breaths PER MINUTE for the first two days.

I dare anyone else to take a straw and suck on it 40-50 times per minute for two days and tell me how that feels.

Anyone who is denying COVID-19 is so blessed to never have experienced what it feels like to be suffocating on your own esophagus.

Because of my condition, I was forced to change my entire lifestyle to be fitness minded just so I can be healthy enough to minimize my symptoms. I exercise several days a week out of necessity, meanwhile we allow a bunch of armchair physicians and naturopaths to spread false information and fringe conspiracies.

It is a regular thought to me that I am fortunate enough to be alive in an age where we have access to such sophisticated medicine, because if I were alive during any other time period before the late 70s, my chances of survival would have been quartered or halved.

Anti-vaxers are some of the most entitled assholes I have ever met.


i am sorry you’ve had this breathing difficulty all your life, and hope you don’t get rona as it seems like it might finish you off

regret to inform you’re barking up the wrong tree here though as all the dogs in the park are allowed to bark and shit where they like, dig holes, pee on each other, (metaphor is getting away from me)  so while i support you please also bear in mind keeping your own self sane.

muh free speech

Andres__Castro
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anna_grin said:

i am sorry you’ve had this breathing difficulty all your life, and hope you don’t get rona as it seems like it might finish you off

regret to inform you’re barking up the wrong tree here though as all the dogs in the park are allowed to bark and shit where they like, dig holes, pee on each other, (metaphor is getting away from me)  so while i support you please also bear in mind keeping your own self sane.

muh free speech

Andres__Castro
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Ouch.

Valeriyabeyond
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fiveamtuesday said:I was diagnosed with asthma when I was 3 years old. This is a picture of my medication/treatment.

the discussion I have seen on these forums about vaccination, and how the site allows people to deny them, is unacceptable.

I have been hospitalized on numerous occasions throughout my life due to my respiratory condition. My longest stay in a hospital was 3 days, where I was averaging ~40-50 breaths PER MINUTE for the first two days.

I dare anyone else to take a straw and suck on it 40-50 times per minute for two days and tell me how that feels.

Anyone who is denying COVID-19 is so blessed to never have experienced what it feels like to be suffocating on your own esophagus.

Because of my condition, I was forced to change my entire lifestyle to be fitness minded just so I can be healthy enough to minimize my symptoms. I exercise several days a week out of necessity, meanwhile we allow a bunch of armchair physicians and naturopaths to spread false information and fringe conspiracies.

It is a regular thought to me that I am fortunate enough to be alive in an age where we have access to such sophisticated medicine, because if I were alive during any other time period before the late 70s, my chances of survival would have been quartered or halved.

Anti-vaxers are some of the most entitled assholes I have ever met.


I had asthma as a child which developed into COPD

I also have aspirin exaserbated respitory distress if I take an aspirin it could kill me
literally suffocate
I have had two episodes in my life and experienced anaphylaxis

I am allergic to bees and most insects specifically the desert southwest's kissing bug I have been to emergency more times than I can count each time with anaphylaxis

I am allergic to most medications cannot take any pain relievers or antibiotic penicillin is the only one

I live at 6000 ft elevation and it can be very hard to breathe up here on any given  day after a hike my oxygen is 40-50%
I live with it
developing my lungs to be healthier and stronger

I do not have wall to wall carpet or central air I use cotton linens and towels and wash with Fels-Naptha

I use homeopathy and these crackpot or armchair physicians are invaluable to me

I use discernment and don't follow every wind that blows by

I also have bulging discs which creates sciatica I use accupressure for that

I cannot risk my life on this vaccine

hemihead
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Yes, allowing antivaxers is irresponsible.

The issue is not one of “considering all the views”, but rather one of low scientific literacy, and/or the rise of alternate agendas, as well as an industry and its counter industry in the US of monetising healthcare.

Even in this limited thread the lack of scientific education is highly visible. For example, the Greeks saw a raven fly overhead before a battle, lost the battle, and said “obviously the gods, in the form of a raven, lost the battle for us”. Same thing when you see someone get a vaccination then attribute some random illness or outcome to it at some future date. The massive data sets immunologists work with, and the statistical analysis tools they use, are unequivocally clear on the safety of vaccines.

Modern vaccines are possibly our finest technical innovation. This is factually indisputable.

If you believe something else you are poorly uniformed, are reading a narrative controlled by people who have some other agenda, are stupid, or feel afraid by the complexity of the modern world and look for solace in conspiracy theories. This is also true.

However...the answers to this problem cannot start with strict censorship, as this does not work well.

The most effective method to encourage vaccine use is to let about 1/3 of the population die from a disease outbreak, especially if it’s children...that usually snaps people out of their dilusions.

The second most affective method is to make people criminally responsible for misinformation, followed closely by making people who provide the platforms for misinformation criminally responsible.

Much stupid shit on the planet right now is caused by the obviously flawed idea that all ideas carry equal weight and merit. The recent armed insurrection attempt may lead to some conversations about that, since the agenda was and is controlled by a wall of mistruth that the great unwashed have no critical thinking skills to navigate, but I think it will take more....probably civil war, which is almost always associated with disease outbreaks....look it up.

Rome enjoyed 100 years of civil war and disease brought about in large part by powerful interests controlling and spreading false information to better their interests....the parallels, including the corruption of existing power systems, and populists rhetoric in response, are striking. Social media is helping amplify this.

The antivax movement is but one symptom of uneducated people being controlled by people who have far too much power....so my answer is that this one issue really doesn’t matter, and natural selection will solve it anyway, sooner or later.

Valeriyabeyond
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hemihead said:Yes, allowing antivaxers is irresponsible.

The issue is not one of “considering all the views”, but rather one of low scientific literacy, and/or the rise of alternate agendas, as well as an industry and its counter industry in the US of monetising healthcare.

Even in this limited thread the lack of scientific education is highly visible. For example, the Greeks saw a raven fly overhead before a battle, lost the battle, and said “obviously the gods, in the form of a raven, lost the battle for us”. Same thing when you see someone get a vaccination then attribute some random illness or outcome to it at some future date. The massive data sets immunologists work with, and the statistical analysis tools they use, are unequivocally clear on the safety of vaccines.

Modern vaccines are possibly our finest technical innovation. This is factually indisputable.

If you believe something else you are poorly uniformed, are reading a narrative controlled by people who have some other agenda, are stupid, or feel afraid by the complexity of the modern world and look for solace in conspiracy theories. This is also true.

However...the answers to this problem cannot start with strict censorship, as this does not work well.

The most effective method to encourage vaccine use is to let about 1/3 of the population die from a disease outbreak, especially if it’s children...that usually snaps people out of their dilusions.

The second most affective method is to make people criminally responsible for misinformation, followed closely by making people who provide the platforms for misinformation criminally responsible.

Much stupid shit on the planet right now is caused by the obviously flawed idea that all ideas carry equal weight and merit. The recent armed insurrection attempt may lead to some conversations about that, since the agenda was and is controlled by a wall of mistruth that the great unwashed have no critical thinking skills to navigate, but I think it will take more....probably civil war, which is almost always associated with disease outbreaks....look it up.

Rome enjoyed 100 years of civil war and disease brought about in large part by powerful interests controlling and spreading false information to better their interests....the parallels, including the corruption of existing power systems, and populists rhetoric in response, are striking. Social media is helping amplify this.

The antivax movement is but one symptom of uneducated people being controlled by people who have far too much power....so my answer is that this one issue really doesn’t matter, and natural selection will solve it anyway, sooner or later.


Disinformation is harnful should not be tolerated
Misinformation could be considered half truth and is debateable
Human Perception controls the human

Valeriyabeyond
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hemihead
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Valeriyabeyond said:Beware big pharma

https://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/23/business/merck-agrees-to-pay-950-million-in-vioxx-case.html


Good example. The US model of healthcare for profit is broken.... just like their food production model that leads to Monsanto, their banking system that leads to Goldman Sachs, their legal system that breeds Gulliani, their military industrial complex that leads to Iraq and Afghanistan, and their political lobbying and financial rules that lead to armed insurrection.

None of which changes the fact that vaccination efficacy is beyond doubt.

(Edit: also a good example of scientific literacy. The question at hand is about vaccines, not the mechanism of development, economic recovery and delivery. Do vaccines work: yes. Is a demonstrably corrupt corporate system that is driven only by profit and with more legal rights that the people of that country able to be trusted to produce safe medical products: No)

Ahavati
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hemihead said:

Good example. The US model of healthcare for profit is broken.... just like their food production model that leads to Monsanto, their banking system that leads to Goldman Sachs, their legal system that breeds Gulliani, their military industrial complex that leads to Iraq and Afghanistan, and their political lobbying and financial rules that lead to armed insurrection.

None of which changes the fact that vaccination efficacy is beyond doubt.

(Edit: also a good example of scientific literacy. The question at hand is about vaccines, not the mechanism of development, economic recovery and delivery. Do vaccines work: yes. Is a demonstrably corrupt corporate system that is driven only by profit and with more legal rights that the people of that country able to be trusted to produce safe medical products: No)


I've missed your voice of reason, Hemi. I've been watching this thread, shaking my head at what the forums on this site are becoming. It's one thing to post misinformation misleading to the public; however, it's another to refuse to retract such false information based on the premise of free speech.

Any information proven to be false should be immediately edited with an addendum that it's been refuted by facts. We're falling prey to faux news and mass misinformation. And while some contest it's harmless, and no one in their right mind would believe it. . .I must point to Exhibit A, the actual posting of it, would indicate someone apparently does.

LunaGreyhawk
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hemihead said:Yes, allowing antivaxers is irresponsible.

The issue is not one of “considering all the views”, but rather one of low scientific literacy, and/or the rise of alternate agendas, as well as an industry and its counter industry in the US of monetising healthcare.

Even in this limited thread the lack of scientific education is highly visible. For example, the Greeks saw a raven fly overhead before a battle, lost the battle, and said “obviously the gods, in the form of a raven, lost the battle for us”. Same thing when you see someone get a vaccination then attribute some random illness or outcome to it at some future date. The massive data sets immunologists work with, and the statistical analysis tools they use, are unequivocally clear on the safety of vaccines.

Modern vaccines are possibly our finest technical innovation. This is factually indisputable.

If you believe something else you are poorly uniformed, are reading a narrative controlled by people who have some other agenda, are stupid, or feel afraid by the complexity of the modern world and look for solace in conspiracy theories. This is also true.

However...the answers to this problem cannot start with strict censorship, as this does not work well.

The most effective method to encourage vaccine use is to let about 1/3 of the population die from a disease outbreak, especially if it’s children...that usually snaps people out of their dilusions.

The second most affective method is to make people criminally responsible for misinformation, followed closely by making people who provide the platforms for misinformation criminally responsible.

Much stupid shit on the planet right now is caused by the obviously flawed idea that all ideas carry equal weight and merit. The recent armed insurrection attempt may lead to some conversations about that, since the agenda was and is controlled by a wall of mistruth that the great unwashed have no critical thinking skills to navigate, but I think it will take more....probably civil war, which is almost always associated with disease outbreaks....look it up.

Rome enjoyed 100 years of civil war and disease brought about in large part by powerful interests controlling and spreading false information to better their interests....the parallels, including the corruption of existing power systems, and populists rhetoric in response, are striking. Social media is helping amplify this.

The antivax movement is but one symptom of uneducated people being controlled by people who have far too much power....so my answer is that this one issue really doesn’t matter, and natural selection will solve it anyway, sooner or later.


Incredibly well put.  

Andres__Castro
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hemihead said:Yes, allowing antivaxers is irresponsible.

The issue is not one of “considering all the views”, but rather one of low scientific literacy, and/or the rise of alternate agendas, as well as an industry and its counter industry in the US of monetising healthcare.

Even in this limited thread the lack of scientific education is highly visible. For example, the Greeks saw a raven fly overhead before a battle, lost the battle, and said “obviously the gods, in the form of a raven, lost the battle for us”. Same thing when you see someone get a vaccination then attribute some random illness or outcome to it at some future date. The massive data sets immunologists work with, and the statistical analysis tools they use, are unequivocally clear on the safety of vaccines.

Modern vaccines are possibly our finest technical innovation. This is factually indisputable.

If you believe something else you are poorly uniformed, are reading a narrative controlled by people who have some other agenda, are stupid, or feel afraid by the complexity of the modern world and look for solace in conspiracy theories. This is also true.

However...the answers to this problem cannot start with strict censorship, as this does not work well.

The most effective method to encourage vaccine use is to let about 1/3 of the population die from a disease outbreak, especially if it’s children...that usually snaps people out of their dilusions.

The second most affective method is to make people criminally responsible for misinformation, followed closely by making people who provide the platforms for misinformation criminally responsible.

Much stupid shit on the planet right now is caused by the obviously flawed idea that all ideas carry equal weight and merit. The recent armed insurrection attempt may lead to some conversations about that, since the agenda was and is controlled by a wall of mistruth that the great unwashed have no critical thinking skills to navigate, but I think it will take more....probably civil war, which is almost always associated with disease outbreaks....look it up.

Rome enjoyed 100 years of civil war and disease brought about in large part by powerful interests controlling and spreading false information to better their interests....the parallels, including the corruption of existing power systems, and populists rhetoric in response, are striking. Social media is helping amplify this.

The antivax movement is but one symptom of uneducated people being controlled by people who have far too much power....so my answer is that this one issue really doesn’t matter, and natural selection will solve it anyway, sooner or later.

Andres__Castro
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HH,

I like much of what you’ve written, but you presented claims and an argument for the efficacy of vaccines, not an argument for taking the new Covid 19 Vaccines. "Modern vaccines are possibly our finest technical innovation. This is factually indisputable."

Let’s get more specific: Covid 19 vaccines for the present strain. Note: A new strain is coming soon.

Are Covid 19 vaccines safe for EVERYONE: probably not. For a SIGNIFICANT number: I would hope so.

See the scientific journals with data presented below for just a start.  There are conspiracy theorists who don't want to dig into the science/spreading terrible misinformation and then people who are hesitant for extremely good reasons. Let's not conflate the two, yes?

https://stm.sciencemag.org/content/12/568/eabe0948

https://www.ucsf.edu/magazine/covid-vaccine-safety

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/370/6522/1274

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)32472-7/fulltext

https://jvi.asm.org/content/94/17/e01083-20


Peace,
A

Valeriyabeyond
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Ahavati said:

I've missed your voice of reason, Hemi. I've been watching this thread, shaking my head at what the forums on this site are becoming. It's one thing to post misinformation misleading to the public; however, it's another to refuse to retract such false information based on the premise of free speech.

Any information proven to be false should be immediately edited with an addendum that it's been refuted by facts. We're falling prey to faux news and mass misinformation. And while some contest it's harmless, and no one in their right mind would believe it. . .I must point to Exhibit A, the actual posting of it, would indicate someone apparently does.



I have retracted every post of mine that has proved to be false

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