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misinformation (the fact check thread)

LunaGreyhawk
LunaGreyhawk
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Just going to put this here in case anyone else here needs to know why it’s disgustingly racist to use the term “jive talk” or “talking jive” to refer to something as dishonest or disingenuous.  I cannot believe it is being tolerated here.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_jive_talk

anna_grin
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ilchruthach
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thank you Luna. I’ve not talk d about it till now cos there was so much other bullshit going on but yeah

EdibleWords
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anna_grin said:1) you’re supposedly black and yet you’re acting like you don’t know the origins of jive talk and why it came to mean disingenuous (hint: racism)

2) what misinformation are you addressing in your first post


More like showing that ambiguity in meaning doesn’t have to be an invitation to the worst possible interpretation. If all cultures came from one, than viral customs should be compatible with parallel friendly cultures.

Imitation is the highest form of flattery. That includes using words your musical icon uses - the way they use them.

EdibleWords
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LunaGreyhawk said:Just going to put this here in case anyone else here needs to know why it’s disgustingly racist to use the term “jive talk” or “talking jive” to refer to something as dishonest or disingenuous.  I cannot believe it is being tolerated here.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_jive_talk


From Wiki “However, because anyone can click "edit" at any time and add content, any article may contain undetected misinformation, errors, or vandalism.”

Fact: wiki is not infallible.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:About



LunaGreyhawk
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Borrowed from a friend of mine, who teaches business writing courses aimed at teaching corporate policy writers:

“Words have always reflected culture. If the racist beliefs hadn’t been there, we wouldn’t have the phrases. We have racist words in our society precisely because racism exists in our society. There has always been a direct corollary.
Our particular focus now as writers needs to be on eliminating words that specifically harm the minority communities because those communities continue to experience heightened violence and discrimination.
Eliminating racist words from our writing won’t end systemic racism, but it will raise individual awareness as we as writers reflect on the terms we use. It will stop the propagation of painful stereotypes.”

anna_grin
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ilchruthach
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bitch you didn’t just try to say using jive talk to mean talking shit is flattery by imitation?

there may be peanuts in your peanuts. Wikipedia is run by a vast army of nerds that take tampering with a page very seriously. go ahead and try it, see how fast they tear you down.

are you denying the history of the phrase? or trying to justify your use of it? pick one despicable route and fucking stick to it

poet Anonymous

EdibleWords said:

From Wiki “However, because anyone can click "edit" at any time and add content, any article may contain undetected misinformation, errors, or vandalism.”

Fact: wiki is not infallible.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:About




No information source is infallible. Encyclopaedias get it wrong....I remember as a kid reading “the Maori of New Zealand grow beans up to six feet long”. It was a very useful lesson.

This means you have to weigh everything for yourself. A fairly harmless/uncontentious page such as the one shown can fairly be assumed to be accurate enough for supporting a point in the forums of a poetry website that literally 3 or 4 people in 7 billion give even the smallest fuck.

poet Anonymous

LunaGreyhawk said:Borrowed from a friend of mine, who teaches writing courses:

“Words have always reflected culture. If the racist beliefs hadn’t been there, we wouldn’t have the phrases. We have racist words in our society precisely because racism exists in our society. There has always been a direct corollary.
Our particular focus now as writers needs to be on eliminating words that specifically harm the minority communities because those communities continue to experience heightened violence and discrimination.
Eliminating racist words from our writing won’t end systemic racism, but it will raise individual awareness as we as writers reflect on the terms we use. It will stop the propagation of painful stereotypes.”


Literal and actual complete bullshit. The context of the words needs to be understood, but eliminating them is stupid.

What will you call a nazi once you have decided the word is not acceptable?

What will you call fascism when you decide fascism isn’t acceptable, so ban the word?

Your friend may teach writing, but they don’t know shit.

LunaGreyhawk
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https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/4495/origin-of-jive-slang

https://www.etymonline.com/word/jive

In case anyone else needs more resources.  Noted also as a lifelong southerner, the term “shuck and jive” is still used (in a racist way) to refer to the way black men have learned to learn to evade being arrested whenever stopped by the police.  

Stop using the term.  It’s offensive to the black community that created an art form only to have it turned into slang by white folks who believed they were all shifty, dishonest criminals.  The exact same way it was used here.  


EdibleWords
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LunaGreyhawk said:Borrowed from a friend of mine, who teaches writing courses:

“Words have always reflected culture.


And what happens when culture and words are redefined? Do we stay rigid? Christmas WAS a pagan Greek celebration. Now it has a totally different attribution. Sunday WAS a pagan holiday. Now Christians worship on Sunday.

How many words had negative attribution, only to gain positive attribution?

Many times that has been the work of persecuted underclasses, turning the deplorable into the adorable.

I listen to “Flatbush Zombies” all the time. They’ve made money off sharing their culture virally. I honor them by absorbing it and paying them for their artistry.

Our particular focus now as writers needs to be on eliminating words that specifically harm the minority communities because those communities continue to experience heightened violence and discrimination.

That interpretation of the problem is condescending to a strong people in charge of their futures. They may set trends and be followed. They need no patronizing “help”

Eliminating racist words from our writing won’t end systemic racism, but it will raise individual awareness as we as writers reflect on the terms we use. It will stop the propagation of painful stereotypes.”

Legalism in language never makes a free man.

anna_grin
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ilchruthach
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hemi my love ya missing the point. nazi is not a racist term. the fuckers came up with it themselves. that’s not what lunas friend is on about

EdibleWords
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hemihead said:

No information source is infallible. Encyclopaedias get it wrong....I remember as a kid reading “the Maori of New Zealand grow beans up to six feet long”. It was a very useful lesson.

This means you have to weigh everything for yourself. A fairly harmless/uncontentious page such as the one shown can fairly be assumed to be accurate enough for supporting a point in the forums of a poetry website that literally 3 or 4 people in 7 billion give even the smallest fuck.


👍

poet Anonymous

LunaGreyhawk said:https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/4495/origin-of-jive-slang

https://www.etymonline.com/word/jive

In case anyone else needs more resources.  Note also that as a lifelong southerner, the term “shuck and jive” is used to refer to the way black men had to learn to evade being arrested when stopped by the police.  

Stop using the term.  It’s offensive to the black community that created an art form only to have it turned into slang by white folks who believed they were all shifty, dishonest criminals.  The exact same way it was used here.  



None of this proves the argument that the words cannot be used. What is does do is highlight the context. If I was to write a historically accurate novel, I would need to use the language of the era.

You, or your silly friend, deciding to ban a word because you don’t like how it could be used is obviously ridiculous.


Pirate.
Rape.
Pedophile.
Murder.
Incest.
Harvest.


Will these be next?

Happy for you to restate your point.

LunaGreyhawk
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I apologize for lack of context.  My friend teaches a business writing course.  I agree that when writing, the subject matter is contextual; otherwise I wouldn’t be ok typing those words out as part of an explanation.  My point (and hers, in the context of her course’s subject matter) is that we need to stop actually using racist terms in these derogatory ways.  

anna_grin
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ilchruthach
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oh, so calling discourse you don’t like jive talk isn’t fucking patronising then?

no one cares what fucking music you listen to it doesn’t make you un-racist. you literally just i have a black friended the conversation.

if this is the hill you want to die on i mean

funny cos i would have thought that if you were black or cared about black people at all this is all shit you would know

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