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misinformation (the fact check thread)

LunaGreyhawk
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Ahavati said:Let me just interject here in regards to underlying conditions and covid-19. If someone has heart disease ( or asthma or diabetes or any other myriad of illness ) they can live many, many years with lifestyle management, i.e. - a good diet, exercise, and medication. My aunt, and matriarch of our family was such a person.

She was in her 50's when diagnosed with heart disease. She lived almost 40 years with that heart condition. She contracted covid-19 and crossed over this morning. She did not die of heart disease. She died from covid-19.

The same would apply to anyone successfully  living with an underlying health issue, myself included. We live successfully by lifestyle management. Covid-19 robs that management by death in a large portion of cases.

When something robs you of your ability to manage your lifestyle, and takes you down so hard that you lose your life, then your cause of death is from the thing that takes you down, despite your underlying illness. It also robs healthy people with no underlying conditions, as in my cousin Amy Christmas week. She was 50 years old. It's also robbed another cousin of her management by severe liver damage, leaving her on a feeding tube. She's my age.

My aunt and my cousin died from covid-19. My other cousin may never fully recover because of covid-19. Because without covid-19, they would ALL be doing today what they'd been doing daily: managing their lifestyle.

This post is not a sympathy post. This post isn't a debate post. This post is simply to let you know that regardless of underlying conditions, covid can and is the cause of death. These studies are attempting to ascertain what type of impact covid-19 has on those with underlying health conditions, not determine that the cause of death cannot be covid-19 nor to negate the seriousness of this virus.

My aunt and cousins have had the flu numerous years, and yet they all lived through it despite their underlying condition. Two didn't live, and one is now on a feeding tube after having covid.

Their cause of death and disability? Covid-19.  


Perfectly stated, Ahavati.  I was a medical coder for a long time and the way you describe the chain of events is exactly what everyone who codes deaths for statistical purposes in any hospital setting would process to eventually assign the cause of death code.  If there is an underlying condition, it is noted, but the cause of death is whatever caused them to be unable to manage said chronic condition.  

My deepest condolences for your losses xoxo 💜

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Ahavati said:Let me just interject here in regards to underlying conditions and covid-19. If someone has heart disease ( or asthma or diabetes or any other myriad of illness ) they can live many, many years with lifestyle management, i.e. - a good diet, exercise, and medication. My aunt, and matriarch of our family was such a person.

She was in her 50's when diagnosed with heart disease. She lived almost 40 years with that heart condition. She contracted covid-19 and crossed over this morning. She did not die of heart disease. She died from covid-19.

The same would apply to anyone successfully  living with an underlying health issue, myself included. We live successfully by lifestyle management. Covid-19 robs that management by death in a large portion of cases.

When something robs you of your ability to manage your lifestyle, and takes you down so hard that you lose your life, then your cause of death is from the thing that takes you down, despite your underlying illness. It also robs healthy people with no underlying conditions, as in my cousin Amy Christmas week. She was 50 years old. It's also robbed another cousin of her management by severe liver damage, leaving her on a feeding tube. She's my age.

My aunt and my cousin died from covid-19. My other cousin may never fully recover because of covid-19. Because without covid-19, they would ALL be doing today what they'd been doing daily: managing their lifestyle.

This post is not a sympathy post. This post isn't a debate post. This post is simply to let you know that regardless of underlying conditions, covid can and is the cause of death. These studies are attempting to ascertain what type of impact covid-19 has on those with underlying health conditions, not determine that the cause of death cannot be covid-19 nor to negate the seriousness of this virus.

My aunt and cousins have had the flu numerous years, and yet they all lived through it despite their underlying condition. Two didn't live, and one is now on a feeding tube after having covid.

Their cause of death and disability? Covid-19.  

wow i am so sorry for your loss my dear sweet lady Ava not sure what else to day except i love you <3
and please stay safe malady xoxox

EdibleWords
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LunaGreyhawk said:

Perfectly stated, Ahavati.  I was a medical coder for a long time and the way you describe the chain of events is exactly what everyone who codes deaths for statistical purposes in any hospital setting would process to eventually assign the cause of death code.  If there is an underlying condition, it is noted, but the cause of death is whatever caused them to be unable to manage said chronic condition.  

My deepest condolences for your losses xoxo 💜

https://www.mprnews.org/story/2020/04/07/covid19-death-certificate-change-stirs-controversy

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Anyone note the date on this article ?

About 10 months old...

Anyone think there have been a *shitload* of deaths since then...

Typical (non) Edible bullshit...

LunaGreyhawk
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EdibleWords said:
https://www.mprnews.org/story/2020/04/07/covid19-death-certificate-change-stirs-controversy


From your article:

Last week, the National Vital Statistics System, which is part of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, provided new guidance for those who submit death certificates. It said they should list coronavirus if it was assumed to cause or contribute to a death.

I swore I wasn’t going to respond to you anymore, but this is too important to stand unchallenged.  This is the kind of twisting of words that you present in these threads that feels so incredibly disingenuous because the articles you post arrange their words to intentionally create bias and cause suspicion where there is no foul play happening.  

What the actual report states (which is linked in the article, by the way so you can - and should - read it for yourself, is this:

“Monitoring the emergence of COVID–19 in the United States and guiding public health response will also require accurate and timely death reporting. The purpose of this report is to provide guidance to death certifiers on proper cause-of-death certification for cases where confirmed or suspected COVID–19 infection resulted in death. As clinical guidance on COVID–19 evolves, this guidance may be updated, if necessary. When COVID–19 is determined to be a cause of death, it is important that it be reported on the death certificate to assess accurately the effects of this pandemic and appropriately direct public health response.”

Medical terms are important.  The guidelines use the word determine because that term is used by healthcare systems and insurance companies all over the country to describe the process by which a medical doctor uses his medical training and experience to determine how his patient died so that reporting the death can be accurate for vital statistics.  That process has not been directed away from in these guidelines; it’s been reinforced.  This report does not in any way call for doctors to falsify reports or to *guess* and if it *might* be Covid, go ahead and attribute the cause of death to the virus.  It instead reinforces listing data points properly and using the correct terminology so that COVID numbers are reported accurately.  

Further, for anyone who might not know how a death is normally determined, here is another excerpt from the same guidelines to (again) reinforce standard medical operating procedure for processing a patient death:

”When reporting cause of death on a death certificate, use any information available, such as medical history, medical records, laboratory tests, an autopsy report, or other sources of relevant information. Similar to many other diagnoses, a cause-of-death statement is an informed medical opinion that should be based on sound medical judgment drawn from clinical training and experience, as well as knowledge of current disease states and local trends (6)”.

And lastly, since the article you posted was blatantly attempting to sensationalize a standard medical operating procedure, here is another quote from the guidelines instructing doctors how to report a suspected COVID death, which is again, the exact same way that patients in every hospital and every physician’s office across this country are diagnosed with every manner of ailment every single day, and how deaths are determined for every patient who dies.  Please note that the doctor must enter “probable” or “presumed” for cause of death based on his informed and educated medical determination (as outlined above) when the cause of death cannot be determined by test results.  Standard operating procedure (again), which is reinforced in the guidelines.  By entering “probable” or “presumed” into the data set, it will allow future doctors and scientists to pull those patients up for a larger study down the line.  It means exactly what it says.  

In cases where a definite diagnosis of COVID–19 cannot be made, but it is suspected or likely (e.g., the circumstances are compelling within a reasonable degree of certainty), it is acceptable to report COVID–19 on a death certificate as “probable” or “presumed.” In these instances, certifiers should use their best clinical judgement in determining if a COVID–19 infection was likely. However, please note that testing for COVID–19 should be conducted whenever possible.

TL;DR - Here is the link to the actual guidelines that were given via the National Vital Statistics Service, in case anyone would like to actually read them for themselves instead of a sensationalized article from people who don’t work in healthcare to a viewer base who doesn’t know the difference.  

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvss/vsrg/vsrg03-508.pdf








Blackwolf
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Thanks , Luna...

Nice to hear truth !

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LunaGreyhawk said:


I swore I wasn’t going to respond to you anymore, but this is too important to stand unchallenged.  This is the kind of twisting of words that you present in these threads that feels so incredibly disingenuous because the articles you post arrange their words to intentionally create bias and cause suspicion where there is no foul play happening.  


Sorry I can’t agree, and here’s the facts because you need to read this:

U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention Director Robert Redfield acknowledged during a House hearing Friday that COVID-19 data could be inflated because hospitals receive a monetary gain by reporting COVID-19 cases.

Republican Rep. Blaine Luetkemeyer of Missouri questioned Redfield during a House Oversight and Reform subcommittee hearing on coronavirus containment. He asked about the “perverse incentive” for hospitals to classify deaths as being coronavirus related when the virus didn’t cause the death.

Luetkemeyer voiced concern about how an automobile accident-related death could be recorded as a COVID-related death. In this scenario, the death was recorded as COVID-related because the virus was in the victim’s system, even if the car accident was the major factor.

“As long as you have COVID in your system you get to claim it as a COVID death, which means you get more money as attending physician, hospital, whatever,” Luetkemeyer said during the hearing. “Would you like to comment on that, about the perverse incentive? Is there an effort to try and do something different.”

Redfield responded by telling the congressman, “I think you’re correct in that and we’ve seen this in other disease processes too.”


https://www.christianpost.com/news/cdc-director-agrees-that-hospitals-have-monetary-incentive-to-inflate-covid-19-data.html


EdibleWords
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Blackwolf said:Thanks , Luna...

Nice to hear truth !


It’s nice to see she believes what she claims. But her bias against me will cost her an argument - but hopefully she won’t miss a chance to see the truth as well.

LunaGreyhawk
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EdibleWords said:

It’s nice to see she believes what she claims. But her bias against me will cost her an argument - but hopefully she won’t miss a chance to see the truth as well.


Oh, the drama.  I have no bias against you as a person, edible.  I don’t know you from Adam.  I do, however, have a real distaste for bites of information taken out of context and disingenuously presented as “the truth”.  

On that note, an excerpt from your own article:

While Luetkemeyer, Redfield and Polis suggest that data shows inaccurately high numbers of COVID deaths, others have come to an opposite conclusion.

A July study by Yale University concluded that there could be substantially more deaths from COVID-19 than reported.

The conclusion came after researchers compared the number of excess U.S. deaths from any cause with the reported number of weekly COVID-19 deaths from March 1 through May 30 using National Center for Health Statistics data.

The numbers were then compared with deaths from the same period in previous years.

“Our analyses suggest that the official tally of deaths due to Covid-19 represent a substantial undercount of the true burden,” Dan Weinberger, an epidemiologist at Yale School of Public Health and a lead author of the study, told CNBC.”






EdibleWords
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LunaGreyhawk said:

Oh, the drama. I have no bias against you as a person, edible.


But you couldn’t even resist responding after promising yourself you would ignore me. Unless I inherently bug you I don’t see why that would be.


I don’t know you from Adam.

How did that happen? We used to be on friendly terms. At least on a poet level, I considered you a friend before all this covid crap happened. I guess that just reinforces your idea of me being ...

I do, however, have a real distaste for bites of information taken out of context and disingenuously presented as “the truth”.  

...disingenuous. Really. You aren’t biased though. Yet you’ve assigned me a lack of honesty. Nice. How do you figure that?

You know what’s not candid? How doctors label things for insurance purposes.

Example: emergency c-sections - are often listed as “elective” when in fact, they were not. I’ve read of a dozen complaints, at least during my motherhood reading and forum participation.

And another thing. Pit-to-distress. Ever heard of it? Ever heard of women being given medication after birth without asking the mother? I know of concrete witnesses.

I can think of other examples of tricky business that pads the hospital’s bottom line.

Now. Covid incentivized them again. Would you like to see a vid of a nurse eyewitness explaining this scam and the lives it actually ends up costing Americans?

Actually, I can also share the witness of a covid survivor who nearly died of a stab wound to the lung, not her covid, but without intervention, they weren’t even giving her enough fluids or even antibiotics or pain meds. All because they swabbed her nose and got a result. Not because of symptoms! I could go on.

George Floyd was put down on the record as dying with covid. Interesting truth. Car accident victims, too.

On that note, an excerpt from your own article:

While Luetkemeyer, Redfield and Polis suggest that data shows inaccurately high numbers of COVID deaths, others have come to an opposite conclusion.


Debate is healthy. Not assuming that Redfield et. al. were wrong. Because others disagree. Not saying I’m twisting crap because I share their opinion!

A July study by Yale University concluded that there could be substantially more deaths from COVID-19 than reported.

The conclusion came after researchers compared the number of excess U.S. deaths from any cause with the reported number of weekly COVID-19 deaths from March 1 through May 30 using National Center for Health Statistics data.


Lockdowns are killing people. There were more drug deaths in LA than Covid-19. Still wanna say their infection made them do it?

The numbers were then compared with deaths from the same period in previous years.

Let’s face the truth. Lockdowns are multiplying our causes of death.

“Our analyses suggest that the official tally of deaths due to Covid-19 represent a substantial undercount of the true burden,” Dan Weinberger, an epidemiologist at Yale School of Public Health and a lead author of the study, told CNBC.”


The “true burden” is the misery we are suffering under that increases all risks.

Depression, for example, is leading to gum disease, leading to increasing circulatory problems, leading to increasing cardiovascular events.

Lack of exercise, weight increases, vitamin D, zinc, access to nutritious food is becoming problematic in some areas, etc. All contributions to our excess deaths.

lepperochan
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How does depression lead to gum disease ?

JohnnyBlaze
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My brain cells are dying off from the misinformation in this thread and I can't risk losing any more.

Blackwolf
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Can not help it...

"I know of concrete witnesses"

EdibleWords
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lepperochan said:How does depression lead to gum disease ?

Severely depressed people neglect hygiene. Especially people living under false arrest. But constant stress dries the mouth (didn’t see that in the article but we’ve all experienced it), leaving it vulnerable to infection.

https://www.deltadental.com/grinmag/us/en/ddpa/2017/wellness/oral-and-mental-health-connection.html

The most obvious explanation for the link comes from the behavioral effects of stress, depression and anxiety. People with these conditions sometimes lose focus on oral health habits, which can lead to significant dental issues. Depression, for example, can cause people to brush and floss at irregular intervals, skip dentist visits, have unhealthy diets and self-medicate with smoking.

Biologically, depression and anxiety cause several factors that impact oral health. The stress they create manifests itself in the body as a hormone called cortisol. As cortisol levels increase, the immune system gets weaker. This can leave you vulnerable to mouth conditions like gum inflammation (gingivitis) and gum disease (periodontitis). In addition, medications prescribed for depression and anxiety can cause dry mouth. This lack of saliva can mean that food debris, plaque and bacteria aren’t getting rinsed from teeth easily, which can make it easier for cavities to form.


As for the cardio-connection:

https://www.health.harvard.edu/diseases-and-conditions/gum-disease-and-the-connection-to-heart-disease

Valeriyabeyond
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lepperochan said:How does depression lead to gum disease ?

When you are depressed you don't do anything this includes brushing your teeth

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