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Freedom of Speech and Censorship Part 2

Ahavati
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Layla said:Ahavati, what makes you think I didn't read the content of the articles or watch the tmj4 video clip on the link, fully and completely?  To assume that I only read titles and then jump quickly to post in the thread, is utterly quick in judgement.

Layla, I was referring to your original post:

Layla[b said:60 yr old Bernell Trammell was killed on Thursday afternoon in Milwaukee WI for being a Trump supporter. From the article it seemed like he was much loved by his community and by his neighbors.  A religious man who ran a shop of handcrafted signs.
What a sad world we're living in at the moment, it's nothing but terrorism when we can't choose freely whom to endorse, whom to vote.
That goes for both sides..its become so dangerous out thereso ugly!

https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/2020/07/23/man-shot-and-killed-thursday-afternoon-milwaukee/5498556002/


No where in that original article you posted, including the title, did it imply he had been killed because he was a "Trump supporter".  

Thusly, my reply to your response to your post containing three article links was:

So, okay the last one ( from a British Tabloid ) does imply somewhat that he may have been shot because he was a Trump supporter - of course they've left out 3/4th's of the story in regards to also being a BLM and anti-gun supporter/activist.

Actually, nowhere in any of the articles you posted, the initial one followed by the three, actually stated he was killed for being a 'Trump supporter".  That is what was misleading to me. But nowhere did I imply you did not read each article.

I agree, false information spreading is dangerous but people can exercise logic and assessment when the world is louder than ever before especially in division of the lines and how it translates to the masses.
Most often I personally do and I'm sure many many people do as well to read cross references, articles and if possible talk to people who are in that city, know the vibe.
But even if titles are questionable, isn't everything worth to discuss?


Yes; whether or not we've made the titles up ourselves or they are the actual titles of an article, everything is worth discussion; however, the truth is imperative to dispel confusion and false statements.

Here's a link to a webpage of the guy who interviewed mr.  Trammell on 7/23.  There are also 2 videos in there where Mr. Trammell expresses his views, beliefs and the atmosphere in the neighborhood on camera.

https://thegoddegree.com/2020/07/23/who-shot-the-ras-did-ras-bernels-support-for-donald-trump-lead-to-his-untimely-death/

I must say my safari didn't cooperate very well playing those videos, but then my browser needs updating and my internet can be dodgy at times.
When I tried on my Firefox, the videos played just fine.



Okay, but we still don't know why he was shot?! The BLM could be posting links saying he was shot because he was a BLM supporter; or, the anti-gun  movement could be posting links, titling them he was shot because he was anti-gun ( how ironic ) because it was THAT sign which was turned upside down and backwards when they found him.

Do you see my point. We don't know. So to say he was ". . .killed because he was a Trump supporter" is very misleading.

PS - that last vid link you posted froze my computer up twice. I'll try it from my phone but if I can't access it from there then I won't be watching it. Where on earth do you get your links from?! LOL!

cabcool
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Blackwolf said:Ah , my friend Cabcool , do not try to control the context of the posts...

The title of this thread imbeds Freedom !


Focus and short attention span are not matters of il-freedom or bondage, BW.  I am not trying to control the context of the post.

This is me, but forgive me if I do not coincide exactly with who you are (which is an avenue of the same freedom you reference): I find it difficult to engage in a discussion that majors in the punctuation marks rather than in the substance of the intent.  I find discussions purposeful when we can get something worthwhile out of them.  Otherwise, the otherwise foolish will just be rolling around in nondefinitive circles.

Of course, you have freedom to digress to your heart's contentment.  Ramble on, my friend.  Remember the other matter, though, which sparked the discussion.  Are we looking for possible solutions?

Ahavati
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Ahavati said:

PS - that last vid link you posted froze my computer up twice. I'll try it from my phone but if I can't access it from there then I won't be watching it. Where on earth do you get your links from?! LOL!


Okay! I got it to work on my phone. So he is a Trump supporter; but that does not prove he was shot because he was. Even the article title has a question mark; it's not a statement:

WHO SHOT THE RAS? Did Ras Bernell's support for Donald Trump lead to his untimely death?

Layla
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Agreed, we don't know till the police investigators conclude.  But even then will the public believe it.
Case in point, a black man was found hung in a town north of LA, actually Val posted about it couple weeks ago.
The police came back saying that he had history of depression and suicidal thoughts in the past so they concluded it to be suicide.  Did it change anything in ppl's mind?!

We all know that news media should be impartial and truthful but that's not the case, each network leans one side or the other and only few and rare ones actually try to stay in the middle but regardless people connect things, mostly because of their personal views and partly because of influence.  
Mr. Trammell's death is being discussed the same way too, unfortunately.

But as i stated before, there's great deal of pressure right now to condemn our choices for electing officials.  It used to be that it was our right not to disclose whom we voted, nowadays its pretty much life and death issue to talk about it because people's emotional connection to politics have become so personal that we're heading on a dangerous road.
Ahavati said:

Okay, but we still don't know why he was shot?! The BLM could be posting links saying he was shot because he was a BLM supporter; or, the anti-gun  movement could be posting links, titling them he was shot because he was anti-gun ( how ironic ) because it was THAT sign which was turned upside down and backwards when they found him.

Do you see my point. We don't know. So to say he was ". . .killed because he was a Trump supporter" is very misleading.

PS - that last vid link you posted froze my computer up twice. I'll try it from my phone but if I can't access it from there then I won't be watching it. Where on earth do you get your links from?! LOL!

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Insult , Cabcool...not well said :

"Ramble on, my friend."

I speak , when I feel , or believe something , and / or have reference to it's validity...


Please do not use underhanded phraseology...Thank You

"I find it difficult to engage in a discussion that majors in the
punctuation marks rather than in the substance of the intent."

Please illustrate this seeming accusation I
did something that fits this description ;

Thank You


Ahavati
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Layla said:Agreed, we don't know till the police investigators conclude.  But even then will the public believe it.
Case in point, a black man was found hung in a town north of LA, actually Val posted about it couple weeks ago.
The police came back saying that he had history of depression and suicidal thoughts in the past so they concluded it to be suicide.  Did it change anything in ppl's mind?!


I am very wary that it was suicide; however, am willing to concede ( without proof ) that it could've been. Those who refuse to believe it was have a very narrow filter without room for truth.  This is the type of thinking in absolutes without definitive proof that starts conflict. For all we know Anarchists could've hung him to start a race war. This is why we have to be so careful.

We all know that news media should be impartial and truthful but that's not the case, each network leans one side or the other and only few and rare ones actually try to stay in the middle but regardless people connect things, mostly because of their personal views and partly because of influence.  
Mr. Trammell's death is being discussed the same way too, unfortunately.


I agree with that; one must know when to believe a thing, when to investigate a thing, or when to disbelieve a thing. Without empirical evidence of a thing, the need to remain unbiased by personal belief in relation to the thing in question is imperative for peace.

But as i stated before, there's great deal of pressure right now to condemn our choices for electing officials.  It used to be that it was our right not to disclose whom we voted, nowadays its pretty much life and death issue to talk about it because people's emotional connection to politics have become so personal that we're heading on a dangerous road.

I agree; it's a very dangerous predicament we're in.  People have been killed for religion, politics, and personal vendettas.  The only hope is to be the change you want; to NOT post/promote headlines that aren't  absolute ( to the best of your knowledge ) truth.  I watch myself very carefully in today's times. Layla. Which, again, is why I have not posted much to these threads lately.  Not because I am afraid; I don't live in fear. But, because I need to know it's as close to the truth as possible, so I am not responsible for a radical taking something not true in context and acting upon it.

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Here's what I think.
Whether he was shot because of being trump supporter or some other reason.
I think the police will come back to conclude that it was random shooting.  In a city with racial tensions, and a country so divided the officials will be very careful to tie it to any kind of politics.
Either way a man died while the world keeps fighting and no one is the winner.

Again, just my humble opinion.

Ahavati said:

Okay! I got it to work on my phone. So he is a Trump supporter; but that does not prove he was shot because he was. Even the article title has a question mark; it's not a statement:

WHO SHOT THE RAS? Did Ras Bernell's support for Donald Trump lead to his untimely death?

Ahavati
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Layla said:Here's what I think.
Whether he was shot because of being trump supporter or some other reason.
I think the police will come back to conclude that it was random shooting.  In a city with racial tensions, and a country so divided the officials will be very careful to tie it to any kind of politics.
Either way a man died while the world keeps fighting and no one is the winner.

Again, just my humble opinion.



I don't know about the investigation; it will be tough without witnesses.  But, I completely agree with you that a man died while the world keeps fighting and no one is the winner.

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Just to be clear , Layla...

Two black men were hung in a very short period of time

And it was during the riots , following the death of George Floyd

Just one of many links :

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/19/us/hanging-deaths-california.html

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Blackwolf said:Just to be clear , Layla...

Two black men were hung in a very short period of time

And it was during the riots , following the death of George Floyd

Just one of many links :

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/19/us/hanging-deaths-california.html


I believe I was the one who posted about it earlier in this thread or previous thread.

Anyhoo, it seemed oddly suspicious. It could have been coincidental. I've personally not come across any follow up articles about either hangings.

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Valeriyabeyond said:

Hey Cab, my comment or reply was directed towards music affecting the person the action and emotions.
I'm not hooked on the word pathetic

I had been watching a video earlier in the day on the Tri-tone and it's effects on people and muscic
That's what my that's right was about
Much Love Cab
Music soothes the Savage beast BW


I am with you, Val.  I am also acknowledging what BW and you have affirmed about music and enoding.  Had I responded to you more directly (instead of pointing you to my response to someone else), I may have been clearer.

These are the parts I intended you to observe from my answer to BW:

(1) "We can see eye to eye on this one, BW.  You are correct without me being wrong."  Note my agreement, Val.

"Music is my whole life -- professionally.  You do not, therefore, bring me strange or novel news."  Note again, Val, I am saying that I understand music to my core -- and I do not mean in a casual, but a professional, way, from Organum and Plain Chant to Baroque, to Western Art ("Classical") to Romanticism to Modern to Avant-Garde to Negro Spirituals to Gospel to R&B to Jazz and Blues to Mento and Calypso to Ska to Rock Steady to Reggae to Dancehall to wherever one wants to go.

(2) "...even music concrete [non-program music]).
Guess why I mention program music versus musique concréte:  because I wanted to show my agreement with both of you.  Program music has a script, a storyline, and can play on the emotions because of that.  On the other hand, musique concréte is pure sound, and yet it can move one to tears, etc.   That's because the body, like inanimate objects, responds to vibrations.

That's why a human voice can shatter a glass. Every object has a resonant frequency – the natural frequency at which it vibrates. When a singer’s voice matches that frequency or pitch, and the glass has microscopic defects, the glass is shattered.

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cabcool said:

"The pain that black people feel is not relatable to white people."

Experientially, this may be true.  That is, however, only when we think in terms of Black & White.  But come on:  we're not playing a game of dominoes here.  We should, rather, try to play keyboard music, because then, as Stevie Wonder aptly puts it, ebony and ivory dwell together "in perfect harmony" on his "piano keyboard, why can't we?"

Is it that those who have not experienced their own pain cannot imagine what pain feels like in the loins and hearts of others?  Sympathy, empathy, compassion, sorry for you, understanding, commiseration, even pity:  are these seeds that grow not in the hearts of those who have not experienced pain for themselves?

When a movie makes you cry and another one makes you feel defiant, or elated or fulfilled:  is this not pathetic fallacy?  It is pathetic because it arouses the emotions [like a pathogen causes disease].  That is good.  But it is also fallacy because it is a mistaken belief based on unsound judgment!  Now, when human beings see other human beings suffer, do we expect pathetic fallacy?  NO!  What about, instead,

pathetic truth, verity, accuracy, certainty, evidence, fairness, frankness?  If we are not dead, we should feel these emotions.

If a callous cop can hold a snide smirk on his fell face while kneeling on another (coincidentally Black?) man's neck for 8 minutes and 46 seconds, until that man is dead, then that must be the gall of hate that has first slain the cop before it sniffs out the (Black) man's life.

First slain the cop before it sniffs out the (Black) man's life, because that cop is void of feeling.  He must be already dead.

I reiterate:  Experientially, this may be true. But what about surrogate love and surrogate feelings and surrogate compassion?

There is no need for willing learners to experience what others less fortunate have experienced as lessons from which they ought to learn!

Please don't let me talk about this anymore.



just to be clear. It wasnt me who said it. my thoughts were:  

it was a. racist (generalizing a race of people by their skin colour)

and b. bollocks



Please don't let me talk about this anymore   <~ what is that supposed to mean ?

Ahavati
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cabcool said:

"The pain that black people feel is not relatable to white people."

Experientially, this may be true.  That is, however, only when we think in terms of Black & White. But come on:  we're not playing a game of dominoes here.  We should, rather, try to play keyboard music, because then, as Stevie Wonder aptly puts it, ebony and ivory dwell together "in perfect harmony" on his "piano keyboard, why can't we?"


According to scientists:

Memories Can Be Inherited, And Scientists Might Have Just Figured Out How

Our life experiences may be passed on to our children and our children's children - and now scientists report that they have discovered that this inheritance can be turned on or off.

Epigenetics is the study of inherited changes in gene expression... changes that are inherited, but aren't inherent to our DNA. For instance, life experiences, which aren’t directly coded in human DNA, can actually be passed on to children. Studies have shown that survivors of traumatic events may have effects in subsequent generations.

The question, of course, is how are these genetic 'memories' passed on?

This is the question that a Tel Aviv University (TAU) was seeking to answer when they reportedly discovered a mechanism that makes it possible to turn the transference of environmental influences on or off.

Their research was recently published in the journal Cell, and was led by Oded Rechavi along with a team of faculty members from TAU’s Faculty of Life Sciences and Sagol School of Neuroscience.

[ . . . ]


My white ancestors were not slaves, thus had no traumatic experiences in relation to that aspect to pass down to me. My Native American ancestors were traumatized; however, not in the same way black ancestors were.  Same with my Jewish heritage. Therefore, traumatic memories which may have been passed down to me are not related to black trauma.  I may have inherited ( and probably did, as I can totally relate through empathy my Native American and Jewish heritage ) aspects of ancestral trauma, it was not conducive of slavery.

Is it that those who have not experienced their own pain cannot imagine what pain feels like in the loins and hearts of others?  Sympathy, empathy, compassion, sorry for you, understanding, commiseration, even pity:  are these seeds that grow not in the hearts of those who; have not experienced pain for themselves?

Of course others can sympathize, as I've previously stated. When I read the stories of Black Wall street, Rosewood, and Emmitt Till ( among many others ), I weep from compassion and sympathy.  That compassion and sympathy is real, and it took me days to fully recover; and I'm not so sure I am. However, I can't empathise with it from a eugenics standpoint. Thus, I cannot personally relate to what they've suffered, despite my ability to personally relate to my Native Americans and Jewish ancestors. I would attest that applies to the majority of white people here in America now, or there wouldn't be such a dissent of removing statues and flags.

That is not a racist nor ignorant statement as it has been labeled.  
Which is why I attempted to explain its difference.  Everyone's suffering is different despite similar circumstances, i.e. - losing a parent, child, etc.

I'd like one parent here who has never lost a child to say that they can personally relate to a parent who has. It's impossible. You cannot. You can sympathize; you can feel their pain; however, you cannot personally relate if you have not lost a child.

If a callous cop can hold a snide smirk on his fell face while kneeling on another (coincidentally Black?) man's neck for 8 minutes and 46 seconds, until that man is dead, then that must be the gall of hate that has first slain the cop before it sniffs out the (Black) man's life.

First slain the cop before it sniffs out the (Black) man's life, because that cop is void of feeling.  He must be already dead.


I can completely see and agree where you are coming from here. It's as though he was completely desensitized to the suffering of George Floyd. Thus, he suffocated him.

I reiterate:  Experientially, this may be true. But what about surrogate love and surrogate feelings and surrogate compassion?

There is no need for willing learners to experience what others less fortunate have experienced as lessons from which they ought to learn!

Please don't let me talk about this anymore.


I totally agree, Cabcool. That is not what I was advocating. I made a statement in relation to opposition to the removal of confederate statues and flags. If white people could personally relate to the suffering of being black in America for generations, they would understand rather than criticize the actions of elected officials to remove them, as well as change the names of schools.

Let history read that we altered what was to become better human beings.

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cabcool
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Blackwolf said:Insult , Cabcool...not well said :

"Ramble on, my friend."

I speak , when I feel , or believe something , and / or have reference to it's validity...


I apologise, BW.  I did not mean to insult you.  I was just giving you your freedom.  I am willing to take it back -- the "'insult," that is.  Not the freedom, over which I have zero control, anyway.

Let's square it at that.

Please do not use underhanded phraseology...Thank You

"I find it difficult to engage in a discussion that majors in the
punctuation marks rather than in the substance of the intent."

Please illustrate this seeming accusation I
did something that fits this description ;

Thank You



All I am saying here is that the discussion has shifted from the question asked of me, to which I was responding.

Sincerely

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