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Freedom of Speech and Censorship Part 2

cabcool
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lepperochan said:"To all: The pain that black people feel is not relatable to white people. It simply isn't. It's generations thick.  How can they ever begin the healing process to release old pain without getting caught up in stories or history if there is not a show of good faith and change on the part of white people?  


@Cabcool

I'm interested to know if the above is something you can concur with


"The pain that black people feel is not relatable to white people."

Experientially, this may be true.  That is, however, only when we think in terms of Black & White.  But come on:  we're not playing a game of dominoes here.  We should, rather, try to play keyboard music, because then, as Stevie Wonder aptly puts it, ebony and ivory dwell together "in perfect harmony" on his "piano keyboard, why can't we?"

Is it that those who have not experienced their own pain cannot imagine what pain feels like in the loins and hearts of others?  Sympathy, empathy, compassion, sorry for you, understanding, commiseration, even pity:  are these seeds that grow not in the hearts of those who have not experienced pain for themselves?

When a movie makes you cry and another one makes you feel defiant, or elated or fulfilled:  is this not pathetic fallacy?  It is pathetic because it arouses the emotions [like a pathogen causes disease].  That is good.  But it is also fallacy because it is a mistaken belief based on unsound judgment!  Now, when human beings see other human beings suffer, do we expect pathetic fallacy?  NO!  What about, instead,

pathetic truth, verity, accuracy, certainty, evidence, fairness, frankness?  If we are not dead, we should feel these emotions.

If a callous cop can hold a snide smirk on his fell face while kneeling on another (coincidentally Black?) man's neck for 8 minutes and 46 seconds, until that man is dead, then that must be the gall of hate that has first slain the cop before it sniffs out the (Black) man's life.

First slain the cop before it sniffs out the (Black) man's life, because that cop is void of feeling.  He must be already dead.

I reiterate:  Experientially, this may be true. But what about surrogate love and surrogate feelings and surrogate compassion?

There is no need for willing learners to experience what others less fortunate have experienced as lessons from which they ought to learn!

Please don't let me talk about this anymore.

Blackwolf
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Cabcool , no problem with your post in general :

Just something for you to know...

The music played in movies , directly influences human consciousness , purposefully...

It is well known , even by old Irish bards , some notes cause one effect , other notes another...

"When a movie makes you cry and another one makes you feel defiant, or elated or fulfilled:  is this not pathetic fallacy?"

It is used by those who know...

Valeriyabeyond
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Blackwolf said:Cabcool , no problem with your post in general :

Just something for you to know...

The music played in movies , directly influences human consciousness , purposefully...

It is well known , even by old Irish bards , some notes cause one effect , other notes another...

"When a movie makes you cry and another one makes you feel defiant, or elated or fulfilled:  is this not pathetic fallacy?"

It is used by those who know...


That's right

Blackwolf
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More , are we saying arousing human emotions , is negative , or pathetic ?

"It is pathetic because it arouses the emotions"

I would totally disagree...those are the mentally warped ideas of a rationalist...

( not saying *you* are , Cabcool )

cabcool
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Blackwolf said:More , are we saying arousing human emotions , is negative , or pathetic ?

"It is pathetic because it arouses the emotions"

I would totally disagree...those are the mentally warped ideas of a rationalist...

( not saying *you* are , Cabcool )

I don't mean that, BW.  I am not using pathetic as 'disgusting' or 'pitiable.'

I mentioned pathogen because I wanted to indicate cause-effect. The word pathetic, scientifically, means of the emotions.

Tell me whether I've cleared it up.

Blackwolf
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cabcool
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Blackwolf said:Cabcool , no problem with your post in general :

Just something for you to know...

The music played in movies , directly influences human consciousness , purposefully...

It is well known , even by old Irish bards , some notes cause one effect , other notes another...

"When a movie makes you cry and another one makes you feel defiant, or elated or fulfilled:  is this not pathetic fallacy?"

It is used by those who know...


We can see eye to eye on this one, BW.  You are correct without me being wrong.
Music is my whole life -- professionally.  You do not, therefore, bring me strange or novel news.  Literature is another side of my whole life.

Pathetic fallacy is a literary term (I believe you know that)  that identifies the pull upon human emotion by artistic phenomena (a painting, a literary work [novel], even music concrete [non-program music]).  When rain falls during a funeral, that, too, is called pathetic fallacy, because nature seems to sympathise.

Let me reiterate as a statement of fact, therefore:
"When a movie makes you cry and another one makes you feel defiant, or elated or fulfilled:  this is pathetic fallacy."
The movie does not even need to have a soundtrack for this to happen.  A good novel has the same effect from mere words on paper in a given context.

I daresay, though, the discussion has digressed onto a tangent.  Please address the vital points (BLM/WLM) to which the mention of pathetic fallacy was merely a clarification reference.

cabcool
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Valeriyabeyond said:

That's right

Val, please see my response to BW.

Blackwolf
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Ah , my friend Cabcool , do not try to control the context of the posts...

The title of this thread imbeds Freedom !

Blackwolf
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"the attribution of human feelings and responses to inanimate things or animals, especially in art and literature."

So , basically we are attributing pathetic fallacy to inanimate things ?

Yet that is *not* the intent of the discussion , is it ?

I am not against you , Cabcool...far from it...

I just want accuracy in your statements...

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Ahavati
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Layla said:Hey everyone, no offense taken lol and I certainly am not here to stir the pot nor aggravate or stoke the fire.
Lord knows I have enough on my plate and I certainly don't want to borrow more online problems.

After posting that I had to go to work and Im sorry I wasn't around to engage and discuss about the topic.
And, unfortunately we had our first case of Covid at work this week, they didn't want to disclose who it was nor which dept he worked at for privacy reasons but he was sent home to quarantine and not to return till he was tested negative, as well as anyone who worked closely with that guy.  They were also sent home for 14 days.  Not sure if they were required to test also.  But thankfully our hours were so cut this week (9hrs only) that majority of us have not been to work..yeah its time for me to claim partial unemployment.  What a pain in the youknowwhat!
Someday I hope there will be some recognition to all the essential workers as well as health care workers who have been continuously working and serving during these trying times.

About the topic on hand:
I'm sure i've mentioned before that I do have some family in Milw. and we were chatting last night and they brought up the situation, which I googled and there were some articles that popped up immediately which bore the headline of a man who was trump supporter and had just gotten killed.

This first link below is from a news segment video of channel 4 which is nbc local news and does mention him being a trump supporter.
https://www.tmj4.com/news/local-news/riverwest-man-59-known-for-holding-political-and-religious-signs-killed-outside-his-own-store

https://www.newsbreak.com/wisconsin/milwaukee/news/1606512199451/respected-milwaukee-community-figure-trump-and-black-lives-matter-supporter-fatally-shot-in-front-of-store

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8559633/Black-Trump-supporter-60-shot-dead-Milwaukee.html

After reading several of them i dropped the milw journal sentinel since it was more of a local paper before heading out.

My cousin did share that there was great deal of racial tension in the city and the location where mr. Trammell's shop is, is in the inner city, the older parts, the poor struggling class.  Apparentely he was a cheerful friendly man who made signs and did have signs both for BLM and Trump, although from some of the articles i read stated that he was on neutral ground and some said he was a Trump supporter. But the the links above do have his pic with a sign that states to Support Trump.

Unfortunately, the idea of BLM and trump simultenously seems like oil and water and whether he was actually a trump supporter we don't know for sure, we can only go by what his friends or neighbors have to say or how the news media reports it, but the sheer fact of him making signs of trump seemed like a very sensitive issue to the community.  Ofcourse, none of us will know for sure till the matter is solved by the investigators.

My feelings about it is not so much whether he was a trump supportor or biden..i don't like what's going on right now where there's great deal of shaming and hatred, belittling, name calling of the parties to each other.  
Looking back during 9/11 everyone displayed their flags outside of their home to show their patriotism and support..i was living in milw at that time..immigrant family that really didn't want to be part of anything, besides the struggles of life..everyone had flags except my family.  One day a neighbor down the street came knocking on the door and he handed us a small flag, the kind people wave watching at parades and he said, 'here, take it put it ouside of your home,  you need it more that anyone else in this neighborhood."
Fast forward to now, people are afraid to display their flags.  I know some who have always displayed and recently have taken down because of fear, that it signifies as being Trump supporter.

I can only tell you what I hear, what i see, and the conversations I engage with regular every day people and I don't like the vibe, I don't like the manipulations,  i don't trust any of the politicians, left or right..there's bigger works in plan and we are nothing but pawns.


Firstly, I am so sorry for your coworker's diagnosis. I hope he will be alright, and wasn't exposed to too many of you.

I clicked on the links you provided; these were the titles:

Riverwest man, 59, known for holding political and religious signs killed outside his own store

Respected Milwaukee community figure, Trump and Black Lives Matter supporter, fatally shot in front of store

Black Trump supporter, 60, is shot dead in Milwaukee: Detectives are investigating 'political' motive after beloved community activist was gunned down in a drive-by

So, okay the last one ( from a British Tabloid ) does imply somewhat that he may have been shot because he was a Trump supporter - of course they've left out 3/4th's of the story in regards to also being a BLM and anti-gun supporter/activist.

This is what we have to be careful of, Layla. Posting titles that many take to heart WITHOUT reading the story, or researching the facts. I can only imagine how many people read the title of that tabloid and shared it, and of course as it was shared it grew in false information ( as they often do ).

The man made signs! He was a business owner and I am certain was remaining neutral in order to run his business. Someone took that out of context because they didn't like a sign he made, which is no indication of whether or not he supported Trump, or BLM, or anti-guns OUTSIDE of his sign making business. I agree, without a direct statement from him, we may never know.

Perhaps his family will speak out. I don't know. But until then, anything we post should be triple checked so that it doesn't cause undo anxiety or incite even more discord than we're trying to live through now.  That's my feeling and what I am personally adhering to, which is why I haven't been posting much in these threads the last few days - triple checking everything, or, waiting for verification on another thing.

Valeriyabeyond
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cabcool said:
Val, please see my response to BW.


Hey Cab, my comment or reply was directed towards music affecting the person the action and emotions.
I'm not hooked on the word pathetic

I had been watching a video earlier in the day on the Tri-tone and it's effects on people and muscic
That's what my that's right was about
Much Love Cab
Music soothes the Savage beast BW

Layla
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Ahavati, what makes you think I didn't read the content of the articles or watch the tmj4 video clip on the link, fully and completely?  To assume that I only read titles and then jump quickly to post in the thread, is utterly quick in judgement.

I agree, false information spreading is dangerous but people can exercise logic and assessment when the world is louder than ever before especially in division of the lines and how it translates to the masses.
Most often I personally do and I'm sure many many people do as well to read cross references, articles and if possible talk to people who are in that city, know the vibe.
But even if titles are questionable, isn't everything worth to discuss?

Here's a link to a webpage of the guy who interviewed mr.  Trammell on 7/23.  There are also 2 videos in there where Mr. Trammell expresses his views, beliefs and the atmosphere in the neighborhood on camera.

https://thegoddegree.com/2020/07/23/who-shot-the-ras-did-ras-bernels-support-for-donald-trump-lead-to-his-untimely-death/

I must say my safari didn't cooperate very well playing those videos, but then my browser needs updating and my internet can be dodgy at times.
When I tried on my Firefox, the videos played just fine.

Ahavati said:

Firstly, I am so sorry for your coworker's diagnosis. I hope he will be alright, and wasn't exposed to too many of you.

I clicked on the links you provided; these were the titles:

Riverwest man, 59, known for holding political and religious signs killed outside his own store

Respected Milwaukee community figure, Trump and Black Lives Matter supporter, fatally shot in front of store

Black Trump supporter, 60, is shot dead in Milwaukee: Detectives are investigating 'political' motive after beloved community activist was gunned down in a drive-by

So, okay the last one ( from a British Tabloid ) does imply somewhat that he may have been shot because he was a Trump supporter - of course they've left out 3/4th's of the story in regards to also being a BLM and anti-gun supporter/activist.

This is what we have to be careful of, Layla. Posting titles that many take to heart WITHOUT reading the story, or researching the facts. I can only imagine how many people read the title of that tabloid and shared it, and of course as it was shared it grew in false information ( as they often do ).

The man made signs! He was a business owner and I am certain was remaining neutral in order to run his business. Someone took that out of context because they didn't like a sign he made, which is no indication of whether or not he supported Trump, or BLM, or anti-guns OUTSIDE of his sign making business. I agree, without a direct statement from him, we may never know.

Perhaps his family will speak out. I don't know. But until then, anything we post should be triple checked so that it doesn't cause undo anxiety or incite even more discord than we're trying to live through now.  That's my feeling and what I am personally adhering to, which is why I haven't been posting much in these threads the last few days - triple checking everything, or, waiting for verification on another thing.

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cabcool said:

A profound statement, Ahavati.  Your own sympathies show how much the evident discontent and anguish in the Black community have appealed to something human in you.  Many eyes have now been opened that once had no particular interest in seeing into what they might not have considered their business.

Human rights are everyone's business.  If it happens to be that human rights demands come in a particular shade, it must be because that shade is where the ills show up.  Human beings must join the shout that White lives matter, if so be it that White lives are at stake; human beings must join the shout that Black lives matter, if so be it that Black lives are at stake.  White nationals are less than human if they turn a blind eye to their Black brothers' pain; Black nationals are less than human if they turn a blind eye to their White brothers' pain.

How much more plainly can I say this?  We are all part of the HUMAN race. No one has a right to be comfortable while his/her counterpart suffers ill, especially at the hands of other counterparts, whatever the shade may be.  No one is excused by looking the other way. How can some be so passive while so many others perish?!

But things are happening; change is taking place, and one fine day, when the last straw has broken the last camel's back, the chains of oppression shall be shattered like scales falling from the eyes of every minion of the dark.

And we all shall wonder why we slept so long...


Like everything, Cabcool, it more often than not takes generations to overcome the pervasive ignorance of their own history.  My grandson will be better than me; as I was better than my parents ( although they were pretty good ); as they were definitely better than their parents, who were of the mindset, "If God wanted us to be together he would've made us all one color, like the birds."

Faith, Determination, Hope, and an unwillingness to give up is what it's going to take, my brother.

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