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Freedom of Speech and Censorship Part 2

Blackwolf
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Who are you calling wrong for wearing a mask ?

Ahavati
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Carpe_Noctem said:

Avhati the science says lockdown has a minimal effect at best.

blah blah



Are you LITERALLY ignoring the facts in regards to how many deaths Sweden has had ( and it's still climbing ) vs New Zealand?! Not to mention the GDP information?! How many more Swedes must die to acheive herd immunity that was predicted to hit in April or May? Six months later and the death toll has reached thousdands and is still climbing.  

Did that twitter shot not show for you?! New Zealand is fully open and enjoying LIFE without worry of covid or daily deaths! Can you say that about Sweden? No; you cannot.

I'm not watching nor listening to your video. Period. I listened to you ONE more time to give you the benefit of the doubt and you BLEW it when you told me the hours of research I had done in order to find out if you were right or not was probably manipulated. Like you know for a fact yours is absolutely correct because you have GOT TO BE RIGHT.

I will say this for the LAST time: whatever you throw at me, I will be able to negate it with verifyable sources ( despite you claiming that they're manipulated because they don't back your claims up ). So I'm done wasting my time on you.

Personal experienc is not universal truth. I have experienced NOTHING like you have; and I wear a mask everywhere I go. I just went out last night! I have decent conversation with other masked individuals. People nod, acknowledge one another and are polite here in my realm.

Throw out whoever you want with the bathwater and justify it however you want. You're addicted to conspiracy theories and anyone who responds to you is feeding that addiction. For God's sake get help.



Carpe_Noctem
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Blackwolf said:

87,000 population ( Total County )

21 deaths to date of October 14th


.....................................................................

I did want to add , as per your last post :

Track and trace
Social credit scoring
Cashless society
Gulags

Track And Trace ?

No , most folks I know , do not drive , carry ID ,
carry cell phones , and live in woods where they
cant not even get good cell phone reception , if
at all...that means tracking does not work out here...

( "they" hate that )...( we *love* it )

Never have to use credit , mostly use cash , never
had a credit card in my life until 1994 , threw it
away years ago...

Gulags ?

You have to be kidding me ?

They tried that here , we would do what we did
to the lumber companies years ago...

An old friend , from years ago...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judi_Bari


Is ths

They are rolling out the track and trace in the larger cities first.

Gulags come in many names and forms.
The fact Canada is building internment camps and New Zealand has quarantine camps, is the same thing. People should at the very least be concerned.

Going on what history tells us, when such camps are deemed of use government.

I mostly use cash, or trade to get what i need.
However a cashback society would mean, doing that becomes more difficult.

I find it hilarious that many people distrust the government.
Because let's face it, governments track record for lying and manipulation of facts is pretty lax at best. At worst criminal.

Not sure where you stand regarding 9/11. To me it was an obvious inside job.
How is it the world's greatest military allowed 4 planes to be hijacked and used as missiles. Raises many questions. Not even getting into how the towers fell. Or all the records that conveniently got distroyed. All the missing money ect.
To me the narrative doesn't make sense.

Yet look at the birth of the global police state, that emerged because of that.
The fact that the patriot act is still in effect.

Hitler did something similar with the Reichstag fire.

I think we can agree that both the gulf war and Afghanistan war, where enacted upon due to false pretenses.
Iraq was about the oil fields
Afghanistan about the popper fields. Look at Americas rising opiate problem due to this.

Bush and Blair and the other politicians, that launched those wars are war criminals.

So if people know the government had lied in the past, regarding excuses to launch a war and such.
Why would this time be different and the government tell the truth and care about it's citizens.

Carpe_Noctem
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Ahavati said:

Are you LITERALLY ignoring the facts in regards to how many deaths Sweden has had ( and it's still climbing ) vs New Zealand?! Not to mention the GDP information?! How many more Swedes must die to acheive herd immunity that was predicted to hit in April or May? Six months later and the death toll has reached thousdands and is still climbing.  

Did that twitter shot not show for you?! New Zealand is fully open and enjoying LIFE without worry of covid or daily deaths! Can you say that about Sweden? No; you cannot.

I'm not watching nor listening to your video. Period. I listened to you ONE more time to give you the benefit of the doubt and you BLEW it when you told me the hours of research I had done in order to find out if you were right or not was probably manipulated. Like you know for a fact yours is absolutely correct because you have GOT TO BE RIGHT.

I will say this for the LAST time: whatever you throw at me, I will be able to negate it with verifyable sources ( despite you claiming that they're manipulated because they don't back your claims up ). So I'm done wasting my time on you.

Personal experienc is not universal truth. I have experienced NOTHING like you have; and I wear a mask everywhere I go. I just went out last night! I have decent conversation with other masked individuals. People nod, acknowledge one another and are polite here in my realm.

Throw out whoever you want with the bathwater and justify it however you want. You're addicted to conspiracy theories and anyone who responds to you is feeding that addiction. For God's sake get help.




Sweden is also open and enjoying a normal life.

If you  had bothered to watch that video i posted. He shows Swedens death rate is not drastically climbing as you falsely claim.

Do you know anyone in Sweden..
I do and what you just posted is bullshit according to people living in Sweden.

If you had bothered to properly read what i had posted and not put your bruised ego into the conversation.
You would have read. I said manipulation goes both ways, so yes i agree. Which is why I look into what all parties are saying, then I decide what sits best with my morals and convictions.

There is obvious media manipulation going on here. The figures and stats are being tweaked and fiddled with. As I keep saying if this wasn't an agenda, Dr's like Vernon Coleman for example, would be on having an open debate. Rather any speaking out against this are censored and deplatformed...

Why?

Addicted to conspiracy theories is a weak lazy response.
I am, as we all should have a right to hear, listening to the Dr's, scientists and medical professionals speaking up against this. I would like to hear what they have to say.

According to your logic those Dr's, scientists and medical professionals are all addicted conspiracy theorists, that should have their credentials revoked.

Here's another mask story I've experienced. A woman in the shop in tears, in front of me in the que complaining she can't breathe, but too scared to take her mask off.

You Avhati justify these dehumanising acts.

I will never wear a mask
I do not consent to tyranny.

Ahavati
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Just in case anyone believes I am personally claiming anything. . .

This is a very interesting article. It was written last month, but we won't have a more accurate assessment of the GDP until the latest study emerges.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/money/2020/09/coronavirus-how-new-zealand-s-recession-compares-to-the-rest-of-the-world.html

Intersting notations in regards to Sweden:



Sweden

In the June quarter Sweden's GDP fell 8.6 percent, which is its largest drop in modern history.

The fall was significantly worse than the fourth quarter of 2008 during the global financial crisis where it recorded a fall of 3.8 percent.

The country's GDP also fell more than its neighbours which implemented lockdowns to stop the spread of COVID-19.

Economist David Oxley told CNBC that Sweden's sharp GDP contraction "confirms that it has not been immune to COVID, despite the government's well-documented light-touch lockdown". [ . . . ]


In attempting to look at a global perspective of GDP ( Gross Domestic Product ), I've listed the drop per country ( available in this article ):

I've bolded all countries whose GDP was higher than New Zealand's and underlined those countries whose GDP was lower then Sweden's, while subsequently researching whether they imposed lockdowns or not.

It is most interesting to note that those countries whose GDP was significantly lower than Sweden's imposed lockdowns. What is more interesting, is that two of those countries border Sweden ( Finland and Denmark ).

I really want a global perspective:

New Zealand: 12.2 percent - Lockdown
Sweden 8.6 percent - Limited Restrictions
Usa - 14.7 percent - Lockdown
England - 20.4 percent - Lockdown

Austria -10.7 percent - Lockdown
Belgium -12.1 percent (provisional) - Lockdown
Canada -11.5 percent - Lockdown
Chile -13.2 percent - Lockdown
Columbia - 14.9 percent - Lockdown

The Czech Republic -8.7 percent - Lockdown
Denmark -6.9 percent - Lockdown
Estonia -5.6 percent -Lockdown
Finland -4.5 percent  - Lockdown
France -13.8 percent - Lockdown
Germany -9.7 percent (provisional) - Lockdown
Greece -14 percent (provisional) - Lockdown
Hungary -14.5 - Lockdown
Iceland -9.1 percent - Limited Restrictions
Japan -7.9 percent -Limited Restrictions
Mexico -17.1 percent - Lockdown
Romania - 12.3 percent - Lockdown
Russia -3.2 percent - Lockdown
Spain - 18.5 percent - Lockdown
South Africa -16.4 percent - Lockdown
China +11.5 percent - Lockdown

This article was written in April:

Sweden resisted a lockdown, and its capital Stockholm is expected to reach 'herd immunity' in weeks

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2020/04/22/no-lockdown-in-sweden-but-stockholm-could-see-herd-immunity-in-weeks.html


This was written this month:

But within Sweden’s scientific and medical community, a debate about the strategy has simmered and frequently boiled over—in the opinion pages of newspapers, within university departments, and among hospital staff. A group of scientists known as “the 22” has called for tougher measures since April, when it published a blistering critique of the country’s public health authority, the Folkhälsomyndigheten (FoHM). The group, which has grown to include 50 scientists and another 150 supporting members, now calls itself the Vetenskapsforum COVID-19 (Science Forum COVID-19).

It says the price for Sweden’s laissez-faire approach has been too high. The country’s cumulative death rate since the beginning of the pandemic rivals that of the United States, with its shambolic response. And the virus took a shocking toll on the most vulnerable. It had free rein in nursing homes, where nearly 1000 people died in a matter of weeks. Stockholm’s nursing homes ended up losing 7% of their 14,000 residents to the virus. The vast majority were not taken to hospitals. Although infections waned over the summer, scientists worry a new wave will hit in the fall. Cases are rising rapidly in the greater Stockholm area, where almost one-quarter of the Swedish population lives.

[ . . . ]

HARM SEEMS to have occurred. The Falu lasarett announced last week that it had been fighting a COVID-19 outbreak in its cardiac ward for 3 weeks, with 10 patients and 12 staff infected so far. As of 27 September, staff will “use protective visors when working closely with patients,” the hospital said. The Swedish Health and Social Care Inspectorate told Science it is investigating 17 hospital and clinic-based outbreaks. In September, Ryhov community hospital in Jönköping announced 20 patients and 40 staff members had been infected in an outbreak in the hospital’s orthopedic ward in May. Five patients died and one is still hospitalized. (The hospital said it had followed FoHM’s policies.) At least three patients have reportedly died of COVID-19 after being infected at the university hospital in Lund.


How's that herd immunity working for you, Stockholm?

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/10/it-s-been-so-so-surreal-critics-sweden-s-lax-pandemic-policies-face-fierce-backlash

A nation is judged by how it treats its elderly. Now who's disgusting?



Ahavati
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This was posted three days ago:

Ahavati said:Fuck Sweden; Population: 10,084,298

5,894 covid deaths. Death Rate: 0.06

Each one a mother, father, brother, sister, son, daughter.

Look at New Zealand; Population: 4,832,548

25 covid deaths. Death Rate: 0.001 ( o O had to round to three decimals. . .)

Which is worth it? New Zealand locked down hard and fast, twice. And eradicated the virus, twice. Resulting in only 25 deaths vs Sweden's 5,894 ( which is still climbing ).

I might be in the damn food line after all of this, but but by God at least I would have my family beside me vs visiting a grave ( if I'm lucky and it wasn't a mass grave or forced cremation ). You can rebuild an economy ( America has done it ). But you can't resurrect a life. Precautions save lives.


5894 Swedish deaths from covid-19 then—
5910 today.

In three days 16 more people have lost their lives in Sweden. Everyone a mother/father/ sister/
brother/son/ or daughter  because * herd immunity *.  And it will continue to rise.

ZERO additional people have lost their lives in New Zealand.

Let that sink in a bit.

Ahavati
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double post

lepperochan
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"ZERO additional people have lost their lives in New Zealand."

again, NZ is a tiny island, its not really comparable  to a nation with neighbouring states

I think the best way to compare Sweden is with its neighbours. I'm not sure of the stats, last I saw Denmark had surpassed them

that said, could have changed by now, it appears to fluctuate.

theres not many people in Sweden on the streets protesting for more restrictions, they're just going about their lives  ..and losing them in some numbers

personally I dont think we should vilify either country for the way they've handled their crisis. it's still early days

we are all being herd immuned whether they say it or not.


Blackwolf
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In the early days , you know what the thought
and reality of *herd immunity* stirred up ?

*An Awe Full Lot Of Bull Shit*

Ahavati
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lepperochan said:"ZERO additional people have lost their lives in New Zealand."

again, NZ is a tiny island, its not really comparable  to a nation with neighbouring states


Untrue. You can compare any country by demographics and death rate:

Sweden; Population: 10,084,298

5,894 ( plus 16 ) covid deaths. Death Rate: 0.06

New Zealand; Population: 4,832,548

25 covid deaths. Death Rate: 0.001


I think the best way to compare Sweden is with its neighbours. I'm not sure of the stats, last I saw Denmark had surpassed them

that said, could have changed by now, it appears to fluctuate.


Let me understand this correctly. Denmark has roughly the same population ( 5.806 million )
as New Zealand ( 4.886 million ) sans a million or so people, but New Zealand is just a tiny island? Denmark has has 675 deaths from covid-19 compared to Sweden's 5,894 deaths. Their GDP was also lower than Sweden's, thus why it's underlined in my above post. So even if you double Denmark's deaths to accommodate Sweden's population, you are still nowhere close to Sweden's deaths. You would actually have to multiply Denmark's deaths by seven to come close to Sweden's deaths but okay.

theres not many people in Sweden on the streets protesting for more restrictions, they're just going about their lives  ..and losing them in some numbers

personally I dont think we should vilify either country for the way they've handled their crisis. it's still early days

we are all being herd immuned whether they say it or not.



How's that tiny little island of yours doing? We see how England is doing ( not so well ). But Ireland wasn't mentioned in the article I posted.

I disagree we should not be vilifying an approach which has saved thousands more lives. Our words are wands and people like Carpe are speaking what they fear the most into being. . .if not countered by the thousands of light-workers who don't resort to name calling or underhanded tactics like shitting on people's posts.

Carpe_Noctem
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Ahavati said:

How's that tiny little island of yours doing? We see how England is doing ( not so well ). But Ireland wasn't mentioned in the article I posted.

I disagree we should not be vilifying an approach which has saved thousands more lives. Our words are wands and people like Carpe are speaking what they fear the most into being. . .if not countered by the thousands of light-workers who don't resort to name calling or underhanded tactics like shitting on people's posts.


As above so below

Said the inverted lightworker
As she her self does underhanded
What she accuses others of doing

Projecting much

As within so without
True colours
Always reveals a facade
Ones that try ever so hard
To appear popular and well liked

Avahati you have a superiority complex
You think you know better
You think that gives you the right
To talk down to the "children"
You deem lacking of your smarts

Underhanded ridicule and bullying tactics, is your response to those you disagree with.
Don't think people don't notice, of course we do.
Even responding to craic, you cant resist that underhanded jab.

Might need to look at that bulb lightworker. Rather dim that light of yours

Avahati we dont know which is the best approach. As I have stated previously time will tell.
What we do know is, the countries in lockdown. Are experiencing a greater level of suffering, suicides on the rise. Depression, alcoholism, drug addiction. Deaths from surgery and early treatment being put off.

So yes it is wrong to vilify those countries.

Time will tell. Let's see how NZ are in 2021 June, their winter, when flu season is prevalent.

If down the road NZ don't have an unusually high death demographic next flu season. As fact states more people die on average in the winter months.
Then countries should be looking to NZ

If however the opposite happens and NZ has an unusually high death demographic. Yet Sweden come their 2021 flu season, if they don't experience an unusually high death demographic, but rather an average seasonal demographic. Then we need to be looking to what Sweden did.

That is how science works, no?

It very well could be Sweden acted wrong, same as NZ. However since this is being conducted as an experiment. It will take several years of data to truly know which country made the correct choices.

Quality of life is every humans right.
The WHO have come out saying. Lockdowns don't work. All they do is increase poverty and decrease quality of life.

lepperochan
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our tiny island isn't doing great at all in terms of infections. we're up to thousands a day, our death rate is very low 4/5 daily

that said, compare the total death rate to tst of 2018 and its down considerably

we could have followed NZ, could have stopped flights and ships from coming in but for some reason, possibly money we didnt do it

our problems are compounded by the fact theres two governments legislating: Brittish and Irish, we were supposed to have an all Ireland approach but the brittish chose not to

the Brittish part of Ireland is an an awful state (Socks, if you're out there I hope you're ok)

my point about NZ (and I've always from day 1 given the lady in charge credit ) is it's a much different circumstance from most of the ready of the world

While the population may be similar to Sweden, they are in a much different position, dare I say much better situation because they have no bordering nations attached to it

that's something which I think must be taken into account. if anything I think NZ could be compared to Ireland because of that

in that instance its easy to see NZ has had a0 much better approach and execution of its handling


I think it's still too early to see which approach will turn out to be the most effective when taking all the things into consideration

NZ is in a great position at the moment, we wont know if the rugby match will turn out to be a mistake or not for about 2 weeks

(Hemi, if you're out there  ...a draw is as good as a loss to be fair )

Valeriyabeyond
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This Virus is such a shock to the (world) system
I agree, we won't know what has worked, or is working, until 2021 and even 2022
by then statistics should mean much more than they do now
With WHO and CDC flip flop flipping on their scientific "facts"
Doctors disagreeing with just about everything from the Virus in general to treatment and vaccines, there is really nothing to go on but belief

I don't feel that Carpe is striving to be right, I believe he genuinely cares for people and their right to free will
Whatever stands in the way of that he will fight it .

Ahavati is more scientific minded where if it is documented proof and it benefits the people overall she will support it
You are both very caring people




Ahavati
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Carpe_Noctem said:

[ personal insults and assumptions ]

Avahati we dont know which is the best approach.

Time will tell. Let's see how NZ are in 2021 June, their winter, when flu season is prevalent.

If down the road NZ don't have an unusually high death demographic next flu season. As fact states more people die on average in the winter months.
Then countries should be looking to NZ

If however the opposite happens and NZ has an unusually high death demographic. Yet Sweden come their 2021 flu season, if they don't experience an unusually high death demographic, but rather an average seasonal demographic. Then we need to be looking to what Sweden did.

That is how science works, no?

It very well could be Sweden acted wrong, same as NZ. However since this is being conducted as an experiment. It will take several years of data to truly know which country made the correct choices.


Your typical insults aside, THAT is the most reasonable thing you have finally said rather than condemning lockdowns and labeling those who support them disgusting et al.

Quality of life is every humans right.
The WHO have come out saying. Lockdowns don't work. All they do is increase poverty and decrease quality of life.


It's not lockdowns that haven't worked; it's the mismanagement of them, and the unwillingness of those who wouldn't give up their "freedoms" for a brief period in time. It's too late for the majority of countries to lockdown now. Who knows what would've happened had all countries locked down hard and fast like New Zealand. We'll never know. Fact.

All I know is that when I find out something you've posted doesn't ring true, I'm going to negate it with whatever facts I can uncover. Such as your claim Sweden has been living life as normal: they haven't. They have imposed limited restrictions of only 50 per gathering.

Restrictions and prohibitions

Here you will find a summary of the restrictions and prohibitions that have been imposed in Sweden due to the coronavirus.

https://www.krisinformation.se/en/hazards-and-risks/disasters-and-incidents/2020/official-information-on-the-new-coronavirus/restriktioner-och-forbud

That looks NOTHING like the photo of New Zealand I posted, where there are zero restrictions in place because of the lockdown.

Over 4,500 people would've had to die from domestic violence and other illness they could not obtain medical treatment for during covid  for the lockdown to be considered as inhumane as you've labeled them. It's a fact that New Zealand designated 200 million to combat the effects of the lockdown in regards to domestic violence.

Here's an article written in July from Healthcare IT News. It's an interview with Shayne Hunter, deputy director general of data & digital at the New Zealand Ministry of Health, about their strategy.

How vital has technology been in New Zealand’s response to COVID-19?

We have been able to maintain services while the bulk of the workforce is working and collaborating from home. This would not have been possible otherwise. Had this occurred five years ago it would have been a different story. We did have Skype but the advent of tools like Zoom and Teams, and the investment in moving to Cloud services along with high-speed internet, have been significant enablers.

https://www.healthcareitnews.com/news/europe/new-zealand-s-covid-crushing-effort

I'm going to contact my friend in NZ tomorrow and try and get some stats in regards to deaths from DM during covid, and perhaps she can point me in the right direction in regards to other health-related issues that, as you're claiming, went untreated during covid. That is not what I was told a few months ago, but things could've changed.

New Zealand locked down hard and fast and defeated covid twice and lost only 25 people. There are no gulgags; no mass incarcerations. Life is moving forward. Covid was not a mass cover-up to lockdown and gain control of people's lives as you have been claiming. It was a measure to save as many of them as possible.

drone
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Ahavati said:

So why not toss them out now?

Got it.

RESEACH
NASTY WORD



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