Can you define poetry
Sometimes I think that my argument that the strength of the words is more important than technique is swayed by my lack of technique...self-justification and all that.
Shakespeare had both, and few could touch him, so I guess technique has to matter....once you can hit hard.
Shakespeare had both, and few could touch him, so I guess technique has to matter....once you can hit hard.
Anonymous
lepperochan said:[quote-297064-DivineStrategy]And robin Williams would tell you to rip that page out, poetryman.
was that a dead poet joke? low, real low. poor fellow
how many words make a poem? what's the least amount? [/quote]
the quote that poetryman used is directly from the movie. one of the students is reading it outloud and keating (robin williams) is plotting on the chalk board. he then tells them to rip out the page.
just throwing it out there.
in my opinion, poetry can't be plotted on a graph. yes, technique and talent and experience play a part in writing, but it is not everything. and everything will not appeal to everyone.
was that a dead poet joke? low, real low. poor fellow
how many words make a poem? what's the least amount? [/quote]
the quote that poetryman used is directly from the movie. one of the students is reading it outloud and keating (robin williams) is plotting on the chalk board. he then tells them to rip out the page.
just throwing it out there. in my opinion, poetry can't be plotted on a graph. yes, technique and talent and experience play a part in writing, but it is not everything. and everything will not appeal to everyone.
do you think that maybe people who read lot may subconsciously employ technique in their own writing.
also when is John Berryman gonna be cool like that other alcoholic yank who it's not really cool to like anymore cos everyone and their mother likes him ..can't remember his name now, Lobo ran a competition recently about him ...one sec I'll check a random profile and get his name ahh yes, Boowaski
pretty good movie that, i suppose some would say that Williams's life was poetic in its contradictions and tragedy
also when is John Berryman gonna be cool like that other alcoholic yank who it's not really cool to like anymore cos everyone and their mother likes him ..can't remember his name now, Lobo ran a competition recently about him ...one sec I'll check a random profile and get his name ahh yes, Boowaski
pretty good movie that, i suppose some would say that Williams's life was poetic in its contradictions and tragedy
Anonymous
to answer your question, yes. i think people do subconsciously employ techniques/style/themes of someone they have read extensively. we've all done it, at one time. at least i imagine that we have. i know i do.
and john berryman is cool. and i'll continue to like bukowski. even if it's not cool.
i'm a fucking rebel like that. (ha!)
i would say that williams' life was quite poetic.
and john berryman is cool. and i'll continue to like bukowski. even if it's not cool.
i'm a fucking rebel like that. (ha!) i would say that williams' life was quite poetic.
APRIL FOOLS!!!!
Thank you Divine for picking up on the quote from Dead Poets Society! I thought for sure everyone would pick up on the absolutely ridiculous statement posted on a poetry website on April Fools Day. Such balderdash should indeed be ripped from the pages of any book of poetry. I started my post with a list of poetry elements to mask the quote to see how many poets would respond as if it were a serious statement about poetry. DPS is one of my all time favorite movies and I remember that scene in the film so very well. I laugh every time I watch my dvd of it.
JJ
DivineStrategy said:[quote-297065-lepperochan][quote-297064-DivineStrategy]And robin Williams would tell you to rip that page out, poetryman.
was that a dead poet joke? low, real low. poor fellow
how many words make a poem? what's the least amount? [/quote]
the quote that poetryman used is directly from the movie. one of the students is reading it outloud and keating (robin williams) is plotting on the chalk board. he then tells them to rip out the page. just throwing it out there.
in my opinion, poetry can't be plotted on a graph. yes, technique and talent and experience play a part in writing, but it is not everything. and everything will not appeal to everyone. [/quote]
Thank you Divine for picking up on the quote from Dead Poets Society! I thought for sure everyone would pick up on the absolutely ridiculous statement posted on a poetry website on April Fools Day. Such balderdash should indeed be ripped from the pages of any book of poetry. I started my post with a list of poetry elements to mask the quote to see how many poets would respond as if it were a serious statement about poetry. DPS is one of my all time favorite movies and I remember that scene in the film so very well. I laugh every time I watch my dvd of it.
JJ
DivineStrategy said:[quote-297065-lepperochan][quote-297064-DivineStrategy]And robin Williams would tell you to rip that page out, poetryman.
was that a dead poet joke? low, real low. poor fellow
how many words make a poem? what's the least amount? [/quote]
the quote that poetryman used is directly from the movie. one of the students is reading it outloud and keating (robin williams) is plotting on the chalk board. he then tells them to rip out the page.
just throwing it out there. in my opinion, poetry can't be plotted on a graph. yes, technique and talent and experience play a part in writing, but it is not everything. and everything will not appeal to everyone. [/quote]
MadameLavender said:A poem is a song without its accompanying music, but can stand alone or with the music, regardless. It is also something that is already written, and those of us who write, are the chosen vessels/conduits by which poems are brought forth into the world, and if you train yourself how to "listen" for them, you'll catch the ones you're supposed to birth, yourself.
I think that sums up what poetry is right there, I've never heard it put any better.
I think that sums up what poetry is right there, I've never heard it put any better.
Ok, April Fools aside, I was posting a comment elsewhere that I think clarifies my first post on this topic...
I suppose it is a philosophical difference I have with poets who believe that "show me, don't tell me" is a rule for writing poetry. I wrote a poem called "Show AND Tell" to counter that train of thought. As a reader I want to know how the poets feel about the scenes they have painted. I consider poems with no emotion to be journalism. Journalism is supposed to be unbiased to allow the readers to read the facts and decide for themselves how they feel about the issues in the story. Poetry is the opposite, in my mind anyway. It is a vehicle to convey emotions. If what I read is purely imagery, to me it is photo-journalism in verse. I realize that many poets and readers disagree with my concept of poetry, a I have read many that write description after description of what surrounds them while offering no clue how they feel about the things they see. I understand it, I just feel like the writer is afraid to express their heart. Are we Vulcans or are we Humans?
JJ
I suppose it is a philosophical difference I have with poets who believe that "show me, don't tell me" is a rule for writing poetry. I wrote a poem called "Show AND Tell" to counter that train of thought. As a reader I want to know how the poets feel about the scenes they have painted. I consider poems with no emotion to be journalism. Journalism is supposed to be unbiased to allow the readers to read the facts and decide for themselves how they feel about the issues in the story. Poetry is the opposite, in my mind anyway. It is a vehicle to convey emotions. If what I read is purely imagery, to me it is photo-journalism in verse. I realize that many poets and readers disagree with my concept of poetry, a I have read many that write description after description of what surrounds them while offering no clue how they feel about the things they see. I understand it, I just feel like the writer is afraid to express their heart. Are we Vulcans or are we Humans?
JJ
Anonymous
Poetry just IS,like water,like wind,like air,it is also creation...
hornyatmorn said:I think I have to correct slightly the Greek orthography here:
Noun: "Ποίημα" => Poeema => Poem
Verb: "Ποιείν" => Poeen => Making (creating)
Νoun: "Ποίησης" => Poeesis => Poetry
You spell correctly the diphthongs in English. Why not in Greek also?
The orthography of Ancient Greek is different from that of Modern Greek, as I'm sure you know. The word 'πόημα', which is the word I quoted, is an early (4C) variant of 'ποίημα', the word still used today. The pronunciation of the modern word is, of course, 'pee-eema', whereas that of the earlier variant is 'poeema', as I said. The same variations apply to the other words I quoted: 'ποείν/ποιείν' and 'ποείσης/ποίησης'.
Whatever the pronunciation, my main point still applies, of course, that the term 'poem' carries the sense of 'something made'.
Noun: "Ποίημα" => Poeema => Poem
Verb: "Ποιείν" => Poeen => Making (creating)
Νoun: "Ποίησης" => Poeesis => Poetry
You spell correctly the diphthongs in English. Why not in Greek also?
The orthography of Ancient Greek is different from that of Modern Greek, as I'm sure you know. The word 'πόημα', which is the word I quoted, is an early (4C) variant of 'ποίημα', the word still used today. The pronunciation of the modern word is, of course, 'pee-eema', whereas that of the earlier variant is 'poeema', as I said. The same variations apply to the other words I quoted: 'ποείν/ποιείν' and 'ποείσης/ποίησης'.
Whatever the pronunciation, my main point still applies, of course, that the term 'poem' carries the sense of 'something made'.
The strength of a poem can be found in the power of the inspiration, and the skill of the poet to capture and convey that message or tell that story is what makes a poem great. Writing is all about the process, if you're passionate about the act of writing poetry, then the skill, editing and technique will follow as you read other poets and apply yourself to hone your craft.
A poem is like a photograph, it's simply a snapshot of a moment in thought. The person taking the photo may understand the mechanics of how a camera works, they may know what buttons to press to achieve the right settings for the desired effects, but the true skill in taking a great shot relies on the instinct in knowing the right angle to achieve that perfect composition, and where to position the sun to give you the right amount of light and contrast. Poetry is everything that happens before you capture that moment.
In regards to the perfect length of a poem, I think the shorter the better, only through choice, because we're becoming increasingly impatient as humans, but there is skill required in both being concise and writing something epic, both need to be compelling.
A poem is like a photograph, it's simply a snapshot of a moment in thought. The person taking the photo may understand the mechanics of how a camera works, they may know what buttons to press to achieve the right settings for the desired effects, but the true skill in taking a great shot relies on the instinct in knowing the right angle to achieve that perfect composition, and where to position the sun to give you the right amount of light and contrast. Poetry is everything that happens before you capture that moment.
In regards to the perfect length of a poem, I think the shorter the better, only through choice, because we're becoming increasingly impatient as humans, but there is skill required in both being concise and writing something epic, both need to be compelling.
Anonymous
<< post removed >>
case28 said:
In regards to the perfect length of a poem, I think the shorter the better, only through choice, because we're becoming increasingly impatient as humans, but there is skill required in both being concise and writing something epic, both need to be compelling.
I don't quite understand the terms "concise" and "epic" here, so please forgive me if I misread you.
Concise to me is a "Sappho lyrical song" and epic is the "Iliad".
A "Sappho song" cannot contain an "Iliad" in it, for if it could it would. The same goes for a long "Epic", it cannot be concise and I don't see any need why it should.
Do you mean anything new by your definitions, especially "the shorter the better", is there a word limit in poetry that we are unaware of, like in some silly competitions in this forum?
If yes, please expand and enlighten.
As for our "increasing impatience", I would agree, we are not good readers of poetry sometimes, and I would take it further:
We are not good enjoyers of anything anymore. We just push buttons and we expect instant gratifications.
In regards to the perfect length of a poem, I think the shorter the better, only through choice, because we're becoming increasingly impatient as humans, but there is skill required in both being concise and writing something epic, both need to be compelling.
I don't quite understand the terms "concise" and "epic" here, so please forgive me if I misread you.
Concise to me is a "Sappho lyrical song" and epic is the "Iliad".
A "Sappho song" cannot contain an "Iliad" in it, for if it could it would. The same goes for a long "Epic", it cannot be concise and I don't see any need why it should.
Do you mean anything new by your definitions, especially "the shorter the better", is there a word limit in poetry that we are unaware of, like in some silly competitions in this forum?
If yes, please expand and enlighten.
As for our "increasing impatience", I would agree, we are not good readers of poetry sometimes, and I would take it further:
We are not good enjoyers of anything anymore. We just push buttons and we expect instant gratifications.
Astyanax said:[quote-296967-hornyatmorn]I think I have to correct slightly the Greek orthography here:
Noun: "Ποίημα" => Poeema => Poem
Verb: "Ποιείν" => Poeen => Making (creating)
Νoun: "Ποίησης" => Poeesis => Poetry
You spell correctly the diphthongs in English. Why not in Greek also?
The orthography of Ancient Greek is different from that of Modern Greek, as I'm sure you know. The word 'πόημα', which is the word I quoted, is an early (4C) variant of 'ποίημα', the word still used today. The pronunciation of the modern word is, of course, 'pee-eema', whereas that of the earlier variant is 'poeema', as I said. The same variations apply to the other words I quoted: 'ποείν/ποιείν' and 'ποείσης/ποίησης'.
Whatever the pronunciation, my main point still applies, of course, that the term 'poem' carries the sense of 'something made'.[/quote]
Point taken and I agree, Astyanax. I did not realize that you were expanding further than Attic dialect into Dorian and Aeolian pronunciations, sorry for that.
Onto something different now.
Following the general discussion and some points made, I agree that technique is not the most important thing, but this relative unimportance should not be an excuse for complete ignorance and lack of it.
We can carry on for ever writing and talking a lot of bollocks about feelings and instincts and what not, but that does not make us poets, on the other hand we can have all the academic tricks we need up our sleeve but a general lack of feeling and instinct, and that does not make us poets either.
We simply need both of them as a pre-requisites, and only then, we can hope to write something worth its salt.
Noun: "Ποίημα" => Poeema => Poem
Verb: "Ποιείν" => Poeen => Making (creating)
Νoun: "Ποίησης" => Poeesis => Poetry
You spell correctly the diphthongs in English. Why not in Greek also?
The orthography of Ancient Greek is different from that of Modern Greek, as I'm sure you know. The word 'πόημα', which is the word I quoted, is an early (4C) variant of 'ποίημα', the word still used today. The pronunciation of the modern word is, of course, 'pee-eema', whereas that of the earlier variant is 'poeema', as I said. The same variations apply to the other words I quoted: 'ποείν/ποιείν' and 'ποείσης/ποίησης'.
Whatever the pronunciation, my main point still applies, of course, that the term 'poem' carries the sense of 'something made'.[/quote]
Point taken and I agree, Astyanax. I did not realize that you were expanding further than Attic dialect into Dorian and Aeolian pronunciations, sorry for that.
Onto something different now.
Following the general discussion and some points made, I agree that technique is not the most important thing, but this relative unimportance should not be an excuse for complete ignorance and lack of it.
We can carry on for ever writing and talking a lot of bollocks about feelings and instincts and what not, but that does not make us poets, on the other hand we can have all the academic tricks we need up our sleeve but a general lack of feeling and instinct, and that does not make us poets either.
We simply need both of them as a pre-requisites, and only then, we can hope to write something worth its salt.
