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Can anyone really be a poet?

Ahavati
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JohnnyBlaze said:

Just as I found growth as a writer with the help of Todski, Trixareforkids and others prior to coming to DUP,

I'm thankful I found someone here as equally passionate about poetry and growing as a writer in You. 💜👫


I miss them both! They were great ( and honest ) critiquers who contributed so much to the poets here.  Onward! Poetry or Bust! 💜👫

Heaven_sent_Kathy
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Respectfully, in regards to the question posed:

I think it's perfectly possible for everyone to try and attempt being a poet.  It is another, if all who try, ever become poets.  After all, I'm still trying...

Ahavati
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Heaven_sent_Kathy said:Respectfully, in regards to the question posed:

I think it's perfectly possible for everyone to try and attempt being a poet.  It is another, if all who try, ever become poets.  After all, I'm still trying...


And you ARE because you haven't given up - so many do during the process. The below article is old; however, makes a very valid point regarding writers who almost failed, but never gave up. Their success is insurmountable now.

https://expresswriters.com/how-9-great-authors-almost-failed-why-you-shouldnt-throw-in-the-towel-just-yet/

Same principle with artists and writers who died destitute but were made famous by virtue of their deaths. Some, like Mary Oliver ( who definitely had her critics ), among others, were lucky and recognized prior to leaving us. Others, not so much.  

Point is, they never gave up on poetry.

Heaven_sent_Kathy
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Thank you dear one, you are right - and you always speak truth by virtue of your own trials and triumphs. x

lepperochan
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I think theres a couple of things to keep in mind :


firstly, define poetry

most everyone here has a different definition of what poetry is. I've seen it on threads over the years. heck, i started one myself some years ago and no one had the same response

when poetry exploded onto the earth, there were no rules. the rules came as a way for people to emulate different poetic styles which other poeple invented (if that's the right word) keep that in mind.

critique is subjective. most every person on the monthly critique honour thing here, the same people every month don't put two minuites into their 'critique' and i use that word loosly


poetry is nothing special. poets are nothing special. my 6year old grand daughter is a poet sometimes. people speak poetry by accident

..that's how easy it is


please continue

JohnnyBlaze
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Ahavati said:

And you ARE because you haven't given up - so many do during the process.  The below article is old; however, makes a very valid point regarding writers who almost failed, but never gave up. Their success is insurmountable now.

https://expresswriters.com/how-9-great-authors-almost-failed-why-you-shouldnt-throw-in-the-towel-just-yet/

Same principle with artists and writers who died destitute but were made famous by virtue of their deaths.  Some, like Mary Oliver ( who definitely had her critics ) were lucky and recognized prior to leaving us. Others, not so much.  


It applies to other art forms as well.

It was very frustrating being self taught at pencil drawing because of no art education whatsoever as far as the public system went.

Ahavati
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Commentonly said:

I smell apathy, celebration of mediocrity and back patting for a round of mutual masterbation and a game of rub my back so I can rub yours, isn’t our utopia grand where we’re all equal and we need to tear down those that are better rather than aiming upwards... I can be dismissive and petulant too but it’s not productive.



Thank you.  One of the issues here at DU is the lack of knowledge regarding the art of discussion/debate, i.e. - adhering to the actual topic instead of becoming personal toward those discussing it.   Demeaning is a known form of discussion/debate derailment.  Attempting to demean a person instead of criticising their argument is widely recognised as poor form, bad practice and very weak.

This type of derailment is also what gets certain comments deleted and threads locked and/or worse, hidden. Thus quelching the much needed art form of quality discussion regarding vital topics ( such as this one ) among members.

lepperochan said:I think theres a couple of things to keep in mind :

critique is subjective. most every person on the monthly critique honour thing here, the same people every month don't put two minuites into their 'critique' and i use that word loosly



You make very valid points.  I am guilty of brevity regarding critique. But, to be fair, some of us have had our head bitten off by those requesting "Honest Critique", thus learning who to avoid wasting our time on ( as far as extended critique - not general support ).  Once you've been grated or completely ignored after spending 30 min to an hour honoring their request, it's easy to become wary of offering again.  A good, solid, critique requires analyzation and can take time.  Who wants to waste that only to be led to the gallows?

Regardless, a good critique definitely improves the writer's ability to improve their poetry, but only if they are willing to learn.  Just read Johnny's testimony above for confirmation of that fact.


Commentonly
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lepperochan said:I think theres a couple of things to keep in mind :


firstly, define poetry

most everyone here has a different definition of what poetry is. I've seen it on threads over the years. heck, i started one myself some years ago and no one had the same response

when poetry exploded onto the earth, there were no rules. the rules came as a way for people to emulate different poetic styles which other poeple invented (if that's the right word) keep that in mind.

critique is subjective. most every person on the monthly critique honour thing here, the same people every month don't put two minuites into their 'critique' and i use that word loosly


poetry is nothing special. poets are nothing special. my 6year old grand daughter is a poet sometimes. people speak poetry by accident

..that's how easy it is


please continue


When everything explodes onto the earth there are no rules, rules get refined as things progress  I would say that’s true of most things in societies, only difference being the rules for something tangible like engineering have to rigidly adhered to or your consruction objectively fails and best case falls down, worst case kills people.

Poetry is not guided by the same absolutes as the hard sciences however certain aspects of the spoken word and the written obviously had enough interest and staying power for it to be passed on and evolved from, not to dissimilar to us and monkeys

Forms were created from the chaos as a ways and means of conveying what poets thought was of importance from their time period blind emulation without thinking.... hello human species lol

Spontaneous poetry of your grand daughter reminds me of the typing monkeys theory (not disparaging your granddaughter just an errant thought)

As to top critiques I wouldn’t give a hoot about who’s on what list for that real critiques often take more effort than creating a poem in the first place, because it requires you to think and analyse after the emotional connection.

As to defining poetry I don’t have an answer for that one either which amuses me, since in this thread I believe I’ve come across as an elitist asshole without it being my intent

But from my experience most definitions come back to emotional connection
And underpinning of the human condition whether real or existential.

David_Macleod
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Anyone can be a poet - anyone! regardless of levels of study

JohnnyBlaze
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lepperochan said:
critique is subjective. most every person on the monthly critique honour thing here, the same people every month don't put two minuites into their 'critique' and i use that word loosly


LOL Yes.

When Honestly Crafted Critique was active, the hours spent critiquing subtracted from my time spent in general comments on poems. It was always funny to see my name nowhere on the critique honorable mention month after month.

I probably still will never make the list because my poem comments often are minor critiques that still take more time than back pats.

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David_Macleod said:Anyone can be a poet - anyone! regardless of levels of study

I can’t argue with this statement, the only thing I can do is rehash the nuances I’ve already discussed

Which means in my opinion leaves a “yeah, kind of” type feeling

Ahavati
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Commentonly said:

I can’t argue with this statement, the only thing I can do is rehash the nuances I’ve already discussed

Which means in my opinion leaves a “yeah, kind of” type feeling


Indeed. . .beating a dead horse is senseless.

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Commentonly said:

Are you saying you don’t need at least some of both? That anything can and is poetry for the sake of subjective relativism that nothing can be raised above something else either by merit of its intent meaning and CRAFT

The standouts of generational works

Shakespeare
Wordsworth
Cummings
Byron
Poe
Dostoyevsky
Pablo Naruda
Bukowski

ETC

Created everything you said and refined it to the likes of an emotional scalpel

————————

And if you think bukowski didn’t have a craftsman’s eye then you aren’t seeing the whole picture he honed his writing style of grit and the seedy underbelly of humanity to give a voice to the working class, to the politically incorrect, the art of the street refined to a point.


If you have five minutes this guy explains a lot of my thoughts on poetry though he is mainly talking about actual modern art the thought process is the same in my opinion of all art forms.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iv-k3yU-koM


“Nothing wrong with a well crafted glass cube. Sharp and neat... I'd rather take one that has scratches from a bird's pecking and has an effect to evoke, provoke thought and appear and mean differently to each viewer. “

This whole statement is riddled with obscuritanism and relativism and for me that’s a fractionation into celebrating mediocrity and awarding participation trophies to all for their self esteem as opposed to having them earn some self respect by putting in effort to improve.

We can all be sprinters but we can’t all be Usain Bolt, but we can work toward being a close to usain bolt as we are capable.

Your entire argument seems to be to convince everyone that poetry is exactly and only what yo think/see/believe is and has to be compared to some sort of benchmarks meaning in competition with something.

One point to remember - the subjectivity. what is mediocre to you may not be the case for the person whom it relates the most.

I see your point and agree that yes, if one wants to be good at something, he must learn, practice and keep doing it. Keep improving it. No argument about that. But... trying to force others to see only your perspective as valid i.e what is poetry to you must be the same for others i don't see that as correct.  

Again you did not read my initial point in cool calm and collected manner.  I said some critiques still ridicule Bukowski for not conforming to the elite standards. I am very well aware that contrary to those critics' belief, Buk was a learned poet. Point was, do not make same mistake of those critics who still refuse to take that great poet as a poet...just because he did not apparently conform to the "standards,norms.,conventions of true poetry".

If expressing one's opinion on something they find attractive naturally is celebrating mediocrity, by all means i am guilty. So are you judging people's views to be dishonest, just because they do not align with yours based on your educated point of view/perspective?

an effort to improve? you are insinuating improve to what standards? to whose? to what norms? yes there is always room for improvement... have you ever thought about those who only write for the pleasure of it and just release and let it out? not to get some sorta lecture on how to express when all they needed was to just let it out? yes your arguments/suggestions hold truth but not always... tell me someone is writing, just jotting things down because they need to let it out, that very moment, it's a therapy/need for them that must be addressed, will you go and stop them from releasing/letting it off untill they do it "correctly".



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Ahavati said:

See, I disagree with that on the basis that art is subjective.  The Eiffel Tower not only exemplifies a monumental symbol of Paris, but also continues to be a functional work of art, much resembling an installation exhibit where viewers can participate in the creation.  To some viewers it is a breathtaking accomplishment that deeply moves them - to others it may be a simple architectural construck.  To me, it's a piece of art that I will never forget seeing as long as I live, much like  Da Vinci's Mona Lisa, and much like Shakespeare's Sonnet 116. . .


I used that example precisely for that reason. The subjectivity of art.

To me that is an architectural marvel. A true wonder. A monument of human achievement. But is it art? well no issues for many it is. For me it is not. Does is evoke a sense of awe? Yes. Does it evoke wonder, amazement upon sight? yes. But does it move my soul? fuck no!

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Miss_Sub said:I think you only need look at the great bards of the past who captivated their audiences with their stories, their myths, their legends. They were the wordsmiths, the poets, the musicians... and they did that because they had a story to tell.

I’ve been captivated lately by the use of the word courage.

Courage usually refers to somebody who is heroic, but if you look at the word courage, the root of the word courage is cor - the Latin word for heart. In one of its earliest forms, the word courage meant "To speak one's mind by telling all one's heart."  (for more on this check out the incredible Brené Brown)

And that’s what you need as a successful poet — heart.

Like my good friend and mentor always says, “don’t even think of picking up that pen if you don’t have anything to say”.

And so I practice turning my heart into words. My vulnerable, wonky, colourful, sweary, musical, whole heart.

It has served me well.


deeply meaningful, & beautifully put 🌷

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