Are you saying you don’t need at least some of both? That anything can and is poetry for the sake of subjective relativism that nothing can be raised above something else either by merit of its intent meaning and CRAFT
The standouts of generational works
Created everything you said and refined it to the likes of an emotional scalpel
And if you think bukowski didn’t have a craftsman’s eye then you aren’t seeing the whole picture he honed his writing style of grit and the seedy underbelly of humanity to give a voice to the working class, to the politically incorrect, the art of the street refined to a point.
If you have five minutes this guy explains a lot of my thoughts on poetry though he is mainly talking about actual modern art the thought process is the same in my opinion of all art forms.
“Nothing wrong with a well crafted glass cube. Sharp and neat... I'd rather take one that has scratches from a bird's pecking and has an effect to evoke, provoke thought and appear and mean differently to each viewer. “
This whole statement is riddled with obscuritanism and relativism and for me that’s a fractionation into celebrating mediocrity and awarding participation trophies to all for their self esteem as opposed to having them earn some self respect by putting in effort to improve.
We can all be sprinters but we can’t all be Usain Bolt, but we can work toward being a close to usain bolt as we are capable.
Your entire argument seems to be to convince everyone that poetry is exactly and only what yo think/see/believe is and has to be compared to some sort of benchmarks meaning in competition with something.
One point to remember - the subjectivity. what is mediocre to you may not be the case for the person whom it relates the most.
I see your point and agree that yes, if one wants to be good at something, he must learn, practice and keep doing it. Keep improving it. No argument about that. But... trying to force others to see only your perspective as valid i.e what is poetry to you must be the same for others i don't see that as correct.
Again you did not read my initial point in cool calm and collected manner. I said some critiques still ridicule Bukowski for not conforming to the elite standards. I am very well aware that contrary to those critics' belief, Buk was a learned poet. Point was, do not make same mistake of those critics who still refuse to take that great poet as a poet...just because he did not apparently conform to the "standards,norms.,conventions of true poetry".
If expressing one's opinion on something they find attractive naturally is celebrating mediocrity, by all means i am guilty. So are you judging people's views to be dishonest, just because they do not align with yours based on your educated point of view/perspective?
an effort to improve? you are insinuating improve to what standards? to whose? to what norms? yes there is always room for improvement... have you ever thought about those who only write for the pleasure of it and just release and let it out? not to get some sorta lecture on how to express when all they needed was to just let it out? yes your arguments/suggestions hold truth but not always... tell me someone is writing, just jotting things down because they need to let it out, that very moment, it's a therapy/need for them that must be addressed, will you go and stop them from releasing/letting it off untill they do it "correctly".