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Can anyone really be a poet?

JohnnyBlaze
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badmalthus said:Poetry as an art form is basically for "Poets"...most people buy novels to read even if they do not write,,,most people buy music to listen to even if they play no instrument...most people have some form of art (painting, sculptor) in their house even if they create none themselves...most people got to the art gallery now and then...but poetry is different, at least here in Australia, poetry is for Poets in the main...most people who read poetry also write poetry...that's why it is truly the poor artists art form...but also the most honest form of art. So can anyone be a Poet? Will everyone read a poem? Only if they choose to...
Cheers...Harry


Which is why it is in the best interest of poets to get more than poets reading it.


Commentonly
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David_Macleod said:Anyone can become a poet, even overnight. Poetry is the free expression a writer writes down. Who is anyone to say - "It's not Poetry" or "It's not good poetry" That place belongs to arrogant critics who put people down in order to raise themselves up based on low self-esteem. Critiques aimed at hurting or discouraging new poets are completely invalid and not worth the paper they are written on. In all walks of life, there are those practising elitism any poet worth their salt should always be humble always be self-deprecating. The first sign of professional arrogance you should run the other way.

So it is too with intellectual snobbery which is simply bullshit. A person who never went to college is equally able to write good poetry as a graduate. It is intellectual snobbery that stops some writers from even trying, they get told they are not good enough or they don't have the right degree it is mindless thinking that allows the pseudo-intellectuals to put themselves at the top of the pile. You are told you must read the classics? WHY? by all means, educate your self on poetry forms and the use of words and grammar, learn about techniques of expression, plot twists, etc learn as little or as much as you can. But be original, break rules, invent new poetry forms and new ways of writing, please do not read the classics and the become a copy cat drowning one like some broken record Keats is Keats, Poe is Poe and you are you. A mentor can be useful on occasion as long as they are never negative and use positive motivation. the moment a mentor expresses negativity or tells you, you are wrong - even if they believe they are being honest then ditch the bitch. You have no further use for them.

everyone is free to be a poet and they have the freedom to use their own voice, their own words, their own intent, their own imagination, their originality is paramount despite what anyone else says.

For encouraging, positive critiques that let you be you go to:

https://deepundergroundpoetry.com/groups/poetry-medics/discussion/

Poetry Medics (The Only DU Official Critique group) and it's Free :-))))))))


Just wow, there is so much in this I disagree with itís so strange because I believe you have the best intentions with it but judgement on quality is subjective, however it also has objective qualities based on language expression, musicality, repetitions, grammar, sonic structures, onomatopoeia, irony, juxtaposition, there are tools to writing poetry that make it objectively better, you donít learn those tools without studying which for the most part involves a lot of reading and thinking. If you treat poetry as an art form and take it as seriously as others then learning the basics and honing those things that have come before will help you break the rules in a way that will resonate

Shoving your fingers in your ears shouting lalalalalalallala youíre just an ivory tower bigot is plain ignorance and stupidity if I suggested any other professional acted in the same manner as you did above

I.e a surgeon

You would probably want to sue the fuck out of them when they botched everything up and killed people

Thatís not to say the have at it approach is a failure in and of itself but quality and talent require work and as with everything you learn first by immitation before self actualisation.

The classics that have been around for hundreds of years have worth because they are still relevant to the human condition that poetry seems to want to express.

You want to try and learn to be a mechanic without pulling engines apart and wonít learn from a teacher youíre going to spend more time failing than actually getting an engine running.

And no negativity..... are you serious? Without the emotional grating from a negative comment what drives you to want to get better? No you sometimes need a good emotional smack upside the head to reorient yourself self flagellation is only useful to yourself

If youíre writing for people you need to understand what will get them to finish reading the piece you want them to make it to the end otherwise you might as well simply keep a diary.

People need to be able to seperate the writing from themselves a critique of writing is different than abuse. And those that canít need to evolve their emotional tolerance to beyond that of a pre-pubescent teenager

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There are no ivory towers. There are no bigots. Just differing opinions between two people who clearly arenít going to agree with each other.

Play nice, guys. That is all.

cold_fusion
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There is a difference between art and craft. Surely craft is something that is learnt and honed. Takes practice, hard work, failures and continuous learning and improvement. Craftsmen are skilled folks.

If you adore craftsmanship that is absolutely fine. A well crafted piece will always stand out for its sheer execution.

Will it appeal to the heart, mind, soul for its sheer effect it has on them or the fancy, glitzy, eye catching, captivating wonder's amazement with no effect on the soul? Eiffel Tower 🗼 is piece of genuine craftsmanship not a piece of art. And art is subjective. Highly so. There is a reason Bukowski is still ridiculed by his critiques. Those purists for whom poetry must be sticking to the convention and norms.

Yes you need skills and craftsmanship to enhance and deliver effectively. Art is not art if it is just skills and no heart, emotion or connection to the viewers inner being.

Just being pretty on eye and pleasant on ear is art to someone. For some it is the ability to move the audience to their core, their entire being, soul shaking the effect from expressions in various forms that is art.
Nothing wrong with a well crafted glass cube. Sharp and neat... I'd rather take one that has scratches from a bird's pecking and has an effect to evoke, provoke thought and appear and mean differently to each viewer.


Ahavati
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Commentonly said:

Just wow, there is so much in this I disagree with itís so strange because I believe you have the best intentions with it but judgement on quality is subjective, if you treat poetry as an art form and take it as seriously as others then learning the basics and honing those things that have come before will help you break the rules in a way that will resonate


Exactly, you must know the rules in order to properly break them.  Breaking rules has been a historic process of evolution throughout art ( this includes poetry ), e.g. -  impressionism, fauvism, expressionism, cubism, and so forth.  The evolution was not always acceptable to those honed in their respective fields ( who often deemed it non-art from their established perspectives ).

Same with broken conventions in writing: rhyme, form, meter, no rhyme, free verse, no punctuation, and so forth.  E.E. Cummings was a prime example of unconventional poetry, and highly successful because he was studied and knew how to break the rules.  

No one in this thread implied you had to have a formal education to be a successful poet; however, I will contest one must at least be self-taught, or they are stuck in a cycle of self-absorbed, repetitive emotion that never evolves beyond themselves.  

Thank you, Commentonly, for getting that.

Shoving your fingers in your ears shouting lalalalalalallala youíre just an ivory tower bigot is plain ignorance and stupidity if I suggested any other professional acted in the same manner as you did above

I.e a surgeon

You would probably want to sue the fuck out of them when they botched everything up and killed people


Perhaps it is not what was said so much as who said it?  That was my take anyway.  Regardless, you're absolutely right. No form of institution would consider a teacher without some form of viable education themselves.  

Thatís not to say the have at it approach is a failure in and of itself but quality and talent require work and as with everything you learn first by immitation before self actualisation.

The classics that have been around for hundreds of years have worth because they are still relevant to the human condition that poetry seems to want to express.

You want to try and learn to be a mechanic without pulling engines apart and wonít learn from a teacher youíre going to spend more time failing than actually getting an engine running.


It all begins with respect for the greats who undoubtedly studied to perfect their art, desiring it to rise above mediocre to the best it could be.  Those who study them emulate that desire.  

And no negativity..... are you serious? Without the emotional grating from a negative comment what drives you to want to get better? No you sometimes need a good emotional smack upside the head to reorient yourself self flagellation is only useful to yourself

Absolutely.  To some honesty is negativity they don't want to hear ( despite requesting it ).  I don't know one person here who critiques negatively.  I know many who simply rewrite poetry with barely an explanation because it's easier to do.   A quality critique can take up to hours if performed properly.  Anyone can rewrite something the way they want, but one definitely needs education in order to educate so that a poet grows away from a complacency they so often become trapped in without quality guidance.

If youíre writing for people you need to understand what will get them to finish reading the piece you want them to make it to the end otherwise you might as well simply keep a diary.

Exactly my point above.  They become stagnant without the fresh water of honest perspective.

People need to be able to seperate the writing from themselves a critique of writing is different than abuse. And those that canít need to evolve their emotional tolerance to beyond that of a pre-pubescent teenager

Amen.

Thank you, Commentonly.


Commentonly
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cold_fusion said:There is a difference between art and craft. Surely craft is something that is learnt and honed. Takes practice, hard work, failures and continuous learning and improvement. Craftsmen are skilled folks.

If you adore craftsmanship that is absolutely fine. A well crafted piece will always stand out for its sheer execution.

Will it appeal to the heart, mind, soul for its sheer effect it has on them or the fancy, glitzy, eye catching, captivating wonder's amazement with no effect on the soul? Eiffel Tower 🗼 is piece of genuine craftsmanship not a piece of art. And art is subjective. Highly so. There is a reason Bukowski is still ridiculed by his critiques. Those purists for whom poetry must be sticking to the convention and norms.

Yes you need skills and craftsmanship to enhance and deliver effectively. Art is not art if it is just skills and no heart, emotion or connection to the viewers inner being.

Just being pretty on eye and pleasant on ear is art to someone. For some it is the ability to move the audience to their core, their entire being, soul shaking the effect from expressions in various forms that is art.



Are you saying you donít need at least some of both? That anything can and is poetry for the sake of subjective relativism that nothing can be raised above something else either by merit of its intent meaning and CRAFT

The standouts of generational works

Shakespeare
Wordsworth
Cummings
Byron
Poe
Dostoyevsky
Pablo Naruda
Bukowski

ETC

Created everything you said and refined it to the likes of an emotional scalpel

óóóóóóóó

And if you think bukowski didnít have a craftsmanís eye then you arenít seeing the whole picture he honed his writing style of grit and the seedy underbelly of humanity to give a voice to the working class, to the politically incorrect, the art of the street refined to a point.


If you have five minutes this guy explains a lot of my thoughts on poetry though he is mainly talking about actual modern art the thought process is the same in my opinion of all art forms.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iv-k3yU-koM


ďNothing wrong with a well crafted glass cube. Sharp and neat... I'd rather take one that has scratches from a bird's pecking and has an effect to evoke, provoke thought and appear and mean differently to each viewer. ď

This whole statement is riddled with obscuritanism and relativism and for me thatís a fractionation into celebrating mediocrity and awarding participation trophies to all for their self esteem as opposed to having them earn some self respect by putting in effort to improve.

We can all be sprinters but we canít all be Usain Bolt, but we can work toward being a close to usain bolt as we are capable.

Ahavati
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cold_fusion said: Eiffel Tower 🗼 is piece of genuine craftsmanship not a piece of art. And art is subjective. Highly so. There is a reason Bukowski is still ridiculed by his critiques. Those purists for whom poetry must be sticking to the convention and norms.



See, I disagree with that on the basis that art is subjective.  The Eiffel Tower not only exemplifies a monumental symbol of Paris, but also continues to be a functional work of art, much resembling an installation exhibit where viewers can participate in the creation.  To some viewers it is a breathtaking accomplishment that deeply moves them - to others it may be a simple architectural construck.  To me, it's a piece of art that I will never forget seeing as long as I live, much like  Da Vinci's Mona Lisa, and much like Shakespeare's Sonnet 116. . .

JohnnyBlaze
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Ahavati said:

No one in this thread implied you had to have a formal education to be a successful poet; however, I will contest one must at least be self-taught, or they are stuck in a cycle of self-absorbed, repetitive emotion that never evolves beyond themselves.  



This high school dropout worked hard at being self taught, but is thankful to have been exposed to the published classics. ❤📚

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JohnnyBlaze said:

This high school dropout worked hard at being self taught, but is thankful to have been exposed to the published classics. ❤📚


You are an exemplary example of how being self-taught can lead to success through discipline, diligent study, and determination to grow as a writer.  ❤📚

Not to mention accepting honestly crafted critique!

JohnnyBlaze
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Ahavati said:

You are an exemplary example of how being self-taught can lead to success through discipline, diligent study, and determination to grow as a writer.  ❤📚

Not to mention accepting honestly crafted critique!


Awwww ❤ Thank you. 😊💜💋

SO thankful for the honest critiques you've provided me. They've helped shaped the writer I am today.

David_Macleod
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I smell elitism, snobbery and arrogance stinking up the place - but as usual - pile right on




Ahavati
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JohnnyBlaze said:

Awwww ❤ Thank you. 😊💜💋

SO thankful for the honest critiques you've provided me. They've helped shaped the writer I am today.


Ditto! Yours has helped me tremendously as well, and proves those with formal educations have much to learn from the self-taught.  😊💜💋

JohnnyBlaze
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Ahavati said:

Ditto! Yours has helped me tremendously as well, and proves those with formal educations have much to learn from the self-taught.  😊💜💋


Just as I found growth as a writer with the help of Todski, Trixareforkids and others prior to coming to DUP,

I'm thankful I found someone here as equally passionate about poetry and growing as a writer in You. 💜👫

David_Macleod
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and on it goes, so much for honesty critique or otherwise

Commentonly
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David_Macleod said:I smell elitism, snobbery and arrogance stinking up the place - but as usual - pile right on





I smell apathy, celebration of mediocrity and back patting for a round of mutual masterbation and a game of rub my back so I can rub yours, isnít our utopia grand where weíre all equal and we need to tear down those that are better rather than aiming upwards... I can be dismissive and petulant too but itís not productive.

The thing is I believe your ideas have merit I think your are right to an extent, but to me thereís more to it than ďAbracadabra your a poetĒí

Im not sure if my own thinking is correct,

you are intelligent, compassionate and have counter ideas to my own, so I like to hone my ideas against yours based on respect though disagree with you some of the time.

Iím not trying to pile on or shout you down I want your voice to see if it can temper my own.

Often we donít see our own arrogance and shortcomings. we can be so in our own bubbles that we donít look at and turn over conflicting ideas.

Judgement and discernment I believe are the problem here but Iím not sure, I could be seeing things from my world view only.

The reason I think judgement is the deviaive factor it judging something or someone as ďbetterĒ leaves people out, those that donít have the competitive drive, the ability or possibly the education but those shortcomings can be ironed out to make a writer more than they currently are. incremental improvements are what drive the earning of self respect.


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