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Je suis Charlie

Fidofood
Lost Thinker
United Kingdom
Joined 11th Sep 2012
Forum Posts: 43

lepperochan said:This is not Islam, don’t know about you people but I know plenty of Muslims and they all have a sense of humour. If you are looking for someone to blame, blame French foreign policy. its that simple

That's like saying to a rape victim "you brought it on yourself" These people were killed as a direct result of publishing their art regardless of their country's foreign policy.




lepperochan
Craic-Dealer
Guardian of Shadows
Palestine 67awards
Joined 1st Apr 2011
Forum Posts: 14449

really? you're right of course. best to round up all the scary Muslims and throw them into death camps.

and the hostages that were killed in the Kosher store in Paris an hour ago, was that a direct result of them buying groceries, shall we start a thread now about our freedom to grocery shop?

Fidofood
Lost Thinker
United Kingdom
Joined 11th Sep 2012
Forum Posts: 43

lepperochan said:really? you're right of course. best to round up all the scary Muslims and throw them into death camps.

and the hostages that were killed in the Kosher store in Paris an hour ago, was that a direct result of them buying groceries, shall we start a thread now about our freedom to grocery shop?


They were targeted because they were Jews, again nothing to do with foreign policy.

As for rounding up Muslims that is the American way lock them away in a camp in Cuba.

lepperochan
Craic-Dealer
Guardian of Shadows
Palestine 67awards
Joined 1st Apr 2011
Forum Posts: 14449

I disagree, which I s’pose is in the spirit of this thread after all. I disagree mostly because there has always been a multi ethnic population in France, Muslims didn’t just get the boat over there in the last few days. those people were targeted to create maximum damage to the last remaining shreds of harmony between the ethnics. It may have been done ’in the name’ of Islam but I think most people have the cop on to see through that.

if you are not aware of France’s policy towards encouraging radicalised Muslims to fight along side Isis in Syria and Iraq then you need to make yourself aware of the bigger picture, then you will understand the knock on effect it is having now.

Islam is being demonized across Europe, just like Judaism was. I can see that, and there is no way I’m going to be a part of it


Harpalycus
Twisted Dreamer
United Kingdom 1awards
Joined 3rd Nov 2014
Forum Posts: 130

I cannot understand how it can be suggested that religion has nothing to do with this atrocity. Of course it is. There will undoubtedly be cultural, political and social aspects, no complex behaviour is monocausal.  Nor does it justify blaming a whole group for the extremist beliefs of a minority, or suggests that religion is the only belief system capable of initiating such behaviour. But to deny that it was carried out in accordance with specific religious beliefs, and largely because of those beliefs, beggars belief.

lepperochan
Craic-Dealer
Guardian of Shadows
Palestine 67awards
Joined 1st Apr 2011
Forum Posts: 14449

that’s a fair point, Harpyclause. I don’t really know much about Islamic belief system. if it is the case of " death to infidel blasphemers " then one would have to ask if peaceful Muslims practice the faith properly.

which is it ? does the belief system call for blood or harmony, which of these factions practice Islam wrong

either way, they died a few minutes ago

Harpalycus
Twisted Dreamer
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Joined 3rd Nov 2014
Forum Posts: 130

My personal opinion, which is in accord with the facts, is that there is no objective right or wrong, there are merely different interpretations. One has only to consider the literally thousands of different sects of Christianity. It is not impossible that one of them is the correct one, but it seems much more likely that they are all wrong. But I do not wish this to become a theological debate. It is a thread to call for solidarity in the face of a demand, for whatever reasons, that people should not exercise their hard won right to free speech.

Atakti
Tyrant of Words
32awards
Joined 1st Aug 2012
Forum Posts: 3273

It might seem tempting to find a simple cause or reason to blame. Don't fall in that trap, though. Also, Craic, remember that it is easier to twist perceptions of past events to suit a different agenda, than to actually orchestrate it.

I am willing to wait a long time for the answers. I am ok with this not making sense yet. These guys will have their story leading up to the massacre — I won't be blaming Islam, French foreign policy, or Obama. I will wait to see what events and background come to light, and maybe will recognize the players involved, maybe not. Who was directly involved, and who is exploiting the situation? Already the people who are Islamophobes are showing their hands.

In the meantime, je suis Charlie...

jesper
Strange Creature
Ukraine
Joined 29th Dec 2014
Forum Posts: 2

You know, there is a theory that `twas organized by russian government like to turn people`s attention from UA-RU war, and to plant a seed of discord in Europe as well.
Je suis...

Solomon_Song
Tyrant of Words
United Kingdom 103awards
Joined 28th Sep 2012
Forum Posts: 331

My thoughts;

It does not justify demonising Muslim people, I am glad to know French Muslim leaders have condemned it on record to the press.

While I am aware depicting Mohammed (even if intended in a complimentary light) is not allowed in Islam - I recall reading a Reader's Digest article in the 1960s about Mohammed explained it did not depict him in the article because the magazine would be liable to be confiscated in Muslim countries - I consider the attack a disproportionate reaction.

The attackers of the magazine office gave me the impression of having had thorough training in weapons and tactics and knew their way into the news room. It seemed to leave no room for mistakes.

At the end of the day I have sympathy for those left bereaved or injured by the attacks.



HHMCameron
BetaWolfinVA
Fire of Insight
United States 4awards
Joined 17th Oct 2014
Forum Posts: 315

appears that they respected all religions equally... not my cuppa

as to the terrorists... i do not care which religion you feel it is your god given calling to kill for, your freedom to be a religious extremist ends in a pine box when you press, stone, hang, behead, shoot, or bomb.  i do not care if you found their art despicable.

i saw a twitter comment complaining that liberals would probably start to harp and about excessive force...
if Paris was still standing after the terrorists were dead then it was *not* excessive force.



Astyanax
Ceejay
Fire of Insight
United Kingdom 9awards
Joined 23rd Feb 2010
Forum Posts: 748

I think these terrible events have more to do with disturbed young men seeking an outlet for their psychopathic impulses than they have to do with religion. Religion was just a hook on which to hang their violent fantasies.

Lexies_guy
Strange Creature
Joined 10th Jan 2015
Forum Posts: 1

It was a satirical comic, they shouldn't be getting the backlash for anything, they are there to make people laugh.

Atakti
Tyrant of Words
32awards
Joined 1st Aug 2012
Forum Posts: 3273

Actually, the humor was a mechanism to try and get people to THINK. Some people are so lazy, they would rather continue with old thoughts than consider the possibility of changing their minds. They find an ideology that fits their world view, and have set up a virtual house there. This could be based on religion, politics, social issues, anything.

You all know someone like that. Now imagine a big group of closed minds, talking themselves into a frenzy. If any of them have violent tendencies, their aggression will come out in that manner. Now consider unchecked violence on a really wide scale that starts with shouting, through brawling, to carrying arms and finally to killing.

The point is not to label the group, and assign blame to the label. The point is to realise that those with violence in their minds will resort to that, the same way people with peace in their mind will avoid it.

Ceejay is right, the religious aspect was a channel for their violence, and is not the reason or cause to blame.

It is so easy to be angry and blame others, and much harder to change one's mind, one's view. Few people have the strength to do that inner work. I believe the purpose of any religion originates as a guide for people through this inner work. Once power and politics get their hooks into something as influencial as religion, than its purpose, via its leaders, is corrupted to conquest by numbers.

Harpalycus
Twisted Dreamer
United Kingdom 1awards
Joined 3rd Nov 2014
Forum Posts: 130

I think that there is certainly an element of that, Astyanax, but it seems incapable of explaining why there are so many terrorist attacks associated with one, admittedly extreme, interpretation of Islam. Why do we not find equivalent numbers of psychopathic young men killing in the name of Hinduism or Buddhism?  Nor can such indicators as the fatwa issued by the Ayatollah Khomeini against Salmon Rushdie, the preaching of such as Abu Hamza, the dedicated training camps and the organisations like Al Qaeda, be ignored. The Holocaust, the Ku Klux Klan at the height  (or depths rather) of its power, the European witch persecution or the Cambodian Killing Fields would certainly have had their share of psychopaths but can it really be claimed that there was no significant ideological component?

Atakti, when you consider the following well attested psychological states:
Sincere religious belief
Common heuristics such as confirmation bias, selective attention and avoidance of cognitive dissonance,
Faith,
Conversion,
The power of peer pressure (cp the Asch conformity experiment),
The influence of authority figures (cp the infamous Milgram experiment),
The propensity towards in group hostility to an identified out group (cp the Stanford prison experiment),
The malleability of human character,
then there is no reason to doubt that ‘normal’ people can, under the right (or wrong) circumstances become terrorists. So, it is not a question of psychopaths being attracted to such extreme positions, though I have no doubt that some are, but that extreme positions, whether religious, political or social, actually create the problem. Any world view that subscribes to intolerance, demands for conformity, domination of others and suppression of free speech is one that I would oppose. I think it a mistake to excuse such world views as having no inherent harm.

And before anyone should suggest it, I am not subscribing to any view that Islam is inherently bad, but that certain extreme positions are inimical to our way of life and should be regarded as such.

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