Acceptable Free Speech and Expression

Anonymous said:<< post removed >>

Nice blast from the past!

🐳 🐋 🐟 🐠 🐡

lepperochan said:
See, i had thought this thread was posted in the spirit of conversation and transparancy, and had thought opinions were welcome.


Isn't that what we're doing?  We all have opinions, even the mods.

lepperochan said:
certainly wasnt having a go at the mod entity  
its dissapointing to see a thread which had potential for a decent convo and debate be plauged with the stonewall again.


"Entity" and "stonewall", I assume are referring to the multi-mod posts here in this thread.  As you may recall from having been a mod, yourself, there were times when we all jumped in on a topic to express our own personal opinions as they related to the topic.  Yes, it looks a bit like a gang-up, with all the neon purple lettering under our usernames, but we are members here, too, and are allowed to go all the same places and do all the same things here, that everyone else does, in the spirit of using this website as members.

Umm said:

correct me if I'm wrong but I think the point the mods are trying to make is basically that, freedom of speech doesn't grant people the right to harass or mentally abuse others on DU. (They..ie, the mods, all seem like rational people, and if they think something is abusive then it probably is.)

just my opinion

^^And there you have it, folks!  I love you for this, Umm--may I adopt you?


todski28 said:

This is why I would never sign up to be a mod, my general suggestion to most is to head down to the hardware store buy a bag of concrete, when words hurt your feelings take two tea spoons and harden the fuck up.


^^Great in theory, if everyone were wired equally.  Not everyone has the ability to grow a pair, and the reality of it is, is that there are a whole host of responses to hurtful words that can happen, from letting it roll off oneself, to tears, to running  a few blades across your arms, to jumping off a bridge or pulling the trigger of a gun to your head.  That's where the dilemma lies--do we say too friggin' bad, only the strong survive and we all have to fit in the same box, or do we say we're all different and individuals with different responses, and perhaps we need to take that into account?

Anonymous said:<< post removed >>

https://i.imgur.com/eJZIcLx.gif

MadameLavender said:

^^And there you have it, folks!  I love you for this, Umm--may I adopt you?


That's nice, but I wouldn't recommend it..my mom is very possessive(in a good way..of course)

but thank you, I think you've made a lot of great points in this thread too ^-^

@ Madame

I used 'entity' to merge all the mods, those who replied and those who didn't. put into context it simply reads "i'm not having go at you mods"  

I don't see where any confusion could lie if read properly


I don't think debate can be had with a closed mind. I've seen Todski say a number of times throughout his posts he can be moved by ideas, but again one would actually have read his posts to know that



the points he made wern't addressed by any Mod, and in faitness to him i think in terms of actual debate they deserve some kind of meaningful, and thoughtful reply or else whats the point ?


again, Im not trying to say the mods are cunts or crooked or any other dumb shit


but the fact is its the mods who are charged with the responsibilities of both preserving some semblence of unchaotic-ness but equally responsible for preserving as much liberties for the writers


yes I was a mod. I made tough decisions and sometimes fought tooth and fkn nail to preserve peoples speech, even when it turned the gut of me like that  peado fkr Todski refers to


[ so forgive me if yawn at the whole "this is what i stand for"

show me how you've stood for something which wasn't so ...very easy]


look, i dunno if anyone is expecting the world to change cos a thread. but, like the man said at least we're talking about it. means we can all learn something about ourselves and from each other.  

to be honest, i thought the 'spiteful asshole' should have been banned years ago but hey


the conversation or debate doesn't have to conclude or have winners or sides

i dont understand why we can't have a sticky thread about free speach and the price of such, pros cons etc then we wouldnt have to keep coming around to it. It would be always there

lepperochan said:@ Madame

I used 'entity' to merge all the mods, those who replied and those who didn't. put into context it simply reads "i'm not having go at you mods"  

I don't see where any confusion could lie if read properly


I don't think debate can be had with a closed mind. I've seen Todski say a number of times throughout his posts he can be moved by ideas, but again one would actually have read his posts to know that



the points he made wern't addressed by any Mod, and in faitness to him i think in terms of actual debate they deserve some kind of meaningful, and thoughtful reply or else whats the point ?


again, Im not trying to say the mods are cunts or crooked or any other dumb shit


but the fact is its the mods who are charged with the responsibilities of both preserving some semblence of unchaotic-ness but equally responsible for preserving as much liberties for the writers


yes I was a mod. I made tough decisions and sometimes fought tooth and fkn nail to preserve peoples speech, even when it turned the gut of me like that  peado fkr Todski refers to


[ so forgive me if yawn at the whole "this is what i stand for"

show me how you've stood for something which wasn't so ...very easy]


look, i dunno if anyone is expecting the world to change cos a thread. but, like the man said at least we're talking about it. means we can all learn something about ourselves and from each other.  

to be honest, i thought the 'spiteful asshole' should have been banned years ago but hey


the conversation or debate doesn't have to conclude or have winners or sides

i dont understand why we can't have a sticky thread about free speach and the price of such, pros cons etc then we wouldnt have to keep coming around to it. It would be always there



I think your comments are a wee bit unfair. I answered both his and your posts. His main thrust was creeping censorship and going too far with political correctness. I think for myself I was clear as crystal about my stance. I would not accepts creeping censorship. As I said for me its only a single issue for me - bullying with personal insults. I personally do not see that as censorship I see it as a positive to rid the site of moronic bullies
If Todski or you yourself want to liven up or widen the debate then I would be more than happy. You can even have a go at the MOD entity, fill your boots. Only one thing if you say to me "the guy that started this thread is a stupid, talentless,  phantom legged, crippled, cunt," then we do have a problem, with one solution even if it were true. Then if you went round pming people say the same thing or if you wrote a poem saying similar as well, that would be a major issue, don't you think?
Anyway Todski  is a big man I am sure if he had an issue with my replies he would raise it, of that I have no doubt.

And as a final thought again looking for and giving transparency and honesty "I couldn't give a rats arse about your stated view that the host of this post is only looking for opinions that agree with his. Unless of course you thin MODs shouldn't be allowed to express and argue for their view points; now that would be censorship

You can say whatever you want here baring personal insults, does that cover everything?

it really irks me
that these so called
punished members

coming back from
7 day hiatus
refreshed energized empowered

I have been slugging it out
in the trenches
totally wiped out

They need to get with the pogrom.

Good evening, and thanks for replying.

ok, so you're a single issue guy. and that single issue is bullying with personal insults.



^ thats it, yet it took you about a trillion words to say it first time around.


i'd have thought that in the interest of transparency and honesty you'd have named your thread "this is why i banned whomever" but no you chose a title which means nothing :


dunno what kind of freedom they can't take from you but if its "acceptable freedom" you were watching the wrong fkn movie


again, i think its great that you're talking, and whoever else is talking its great they're talking too


that stuff that you wrote up there about phantom legged count or whatever it was. man, I would say you need to harden the fuck up if you're going to let a moron use words to hurt you like that

no. it wouldn't be a major issue to me. you've said already you don't have legs so I don't see the insult.  am I wrong ?

lepperochan said:Good evening, and thanks for replying.

ok, so you're a single issue guy. and that single issue is bullying with personal insults.



^ thats it, yet it took you about a trillion words to say it first time around.


i'd have thought that in the interest of transparency and honesty you'd have named your thread "this is why i banned whomever" but no you chose a title which means nothing :


dunno what kind of freedom they can't take from you but if its "acceptable freedom" you were watching the wrong fkn movie


again, i think its great that you're talking, and whoever else is talking its great they're talking too


that stuff that you wrote up there about phantom legged count or whatever it was. man, I would say you need to harden the fuck up if you're going to let a moron use words to hurt you like that

no. it wouldn't be a major issue to me. you've said already you don't have legs so I don't see the insult.  am I wrong ?







Then you need to look with better eyes that that, a bit of humility and empathy goes a long way

Just saying

So you're saying it is an insult to point out a fact.


This is what I mean about muddiness....

Edit:  I've plenty of humility. but if someone asked me to make a decision of censorship based on what you said up there I would argue against it


regardless of the lost limbs, we only have your word that your not all the other things.


for the record, I would never point out you'd no legs to try and hurt you. I wouldn't try and hurt you full stop

that said, I'd not call nor think you weak either


Nuther edit:


"Sometimes you just have to trust that we’re doing our jobs with everyone’s best interest in mind"

I thought about likening that statement to the black propaganda "holiday camp" flicks. but it would probably be misunderstood

lepperochan said:Good evening, and thanks for replying.

ok, so you're a single issue guy. and that single issue is bullying with personal insults.



^ thats it, yet it took you about a trillion words to say it first time around.


i'd have thought that in the interest of transparency and honesty you'd have named your thread "this is why i banned whomever" but no you chose a title which means nothing :


dunno what kind of freedom they can't take from you but if its "acceptable freedom" you were watching the wrong fkn movie


again, i think its great that you're talking, and whoever else is talking its great they're talking too


that stuff that you wrote up there about phantom legged count or whatever it was. man, I would say you need to harden the fuck up if you're going to let a moron use words to hurt you like that

no. it wouldn't be a major issue to me. you've said already you don't have legs so I don't see the insult.  am I wrong ?







Ok I forgot you wanted a line by line reply despite not giving me one any how here goes:

Thank you for your thank you and salutation

I am not a single issue guy if you read my poetry you would see that but on the subject we are discussing then yes to me it is a single issue

I have told you a trillion times not to exaggerate. Especially with word counts

My title is more than adequate on that we disagree. If the title means nothing why are you here wasting your time on nothing? ( I never discuss bans or the reasons for them. That's confidential: I thought you being an ex-mod you would know that)

I would love to respond to the next line if it made sense - who is they? What's the wrong Movie? Have I actually seen it? Did I have popcorn?

It's great when people talk, see we agree on something

And I would say to you I wish you legless just for a month or so with all it's complications and see if you harden  the fuck up or cry like a six year old. Experience in the mother of true understanding

You don't see the insult? Really? Then do me a favour, scour the streets for a man with no legs and call him that watch the response then  you might but only might get it

Is that better, did I miss anything ?

David_Macleod said:

Ok I forgot you wanted a line by line reply despite not giving me one any how here goes:

Thank you for your thank you and salutation

I am not a single issue guy if you read my poetry you would see that but on the subject we are discussing then yes to me it is a single issue

I have told you a trillion times not to exaggerate. Especially with word counts

My title is more than adequate on that we disagree. If the title means nothing why are you here wasting your time on nothing? ( I never discuss bans or the reasons for them. That's confidential: I thought you being an ex-mod you would know that)

I would love to respond to the next line if it made sense - who is they? What's the wrong Movie? Have I actually seen it? Did I have popcorn?

It's great when people talk, see we agree on something

And I would say to you I wish you legless just for a month or so with all it's complications and see if you harden  the fuck up or cry like a six year old. Experience in the mother of true understanding

You don't see the insult? Really? Then do me a favour, scour the streets for a man with no legs and call him that watch the response then  you might but only might get it

Is that better, did I miss anything ?






Hullo again and thank you for your prompt and in depth reply. I'll try furnish you with one also


the film was Braveheart, you quote it a trillion times a day....only if the popcorn was deep fried in batter first


you're right. my life life would be an absolute hell if I lost any of my limbs. or a finger for that matter. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.

I'm sorry for trying to make your loss and pain something which I understand. I couldn't possibly. and was (temporarily) idiotic for thinking i could

what I will say though, if you don't mind using the original phantom sentence as an example


It could go either way, y'know. a person in a similar situation could feel differently about those words and perhaps feel personally insulted, even angered at  being protected from them

to that end, a person can literally take a personal insult from anywhere even in the best of intentions. so far you haven't seemed to be able to grasp that

so now if you're going to pursue the zero tolerance line you gave such build up to you could be in a situation where you have to take action all over the place or start to grade personal insult

how would you go about that. I mean, the nightmare would be endless.

rabbitquest said:
it really irks me
that these so called
punished members

coming back from
7 day hiatus
refreshed energized empowered

I have been slugging it out
in the trenches
totally wiped out

They need to get with the pogrom.


Sort of like the shark in “Jaws”—just kept coming back for more, but eventually bit off more than it could chew.

@ Todski28
"
Moral puritanism is and always will be moral puritanism, you have a soft bigotry of low expectation for anyone you consider "damaged" but I find that concept a moral high ground from which you can pontificate your seeming superiority from. "

first of all can you clarify what you mean by moral puritanism? and your words come across as morals and morality (here i am referring to as the universal values of not hurting others, not stealing, killing, robbing, stabbing and forcing self on others) are some things that are fundamentally flawed and wrong and are accepted by society just because majority agrees to it without question or reason? tell me IF NOT MORALS/VALUES what else does separate us humans from animals?

if someone is being or trying to be morally justified i.e. just do the right thing or give someone a fair go, most of the times that irks the ones who do not do the same and hence label it as some sorta bad thing that should be discouraged. And mind you  doing the right thing is often the harder part of doing things. Also your views project disdain for all things religion, and they are your views, fine and you have every and absolute right to hold them, but same goes for the whatever religious/moral/spiritual humans hold as dear and ideals too. As i mentioned in the other thread, superiority is but a state of mind and it is not only just the feeling of being superior it is also the feeling of inferior by those subjected to that through force. Same vein moral high ground or the perception of it is but a state of mind and perception is individual not necessarily the truth.

"robust discussion and passionate discourse are different from aggression and violence, the more we as social groups cow-tow to the idea that we should be beholden to the offended then we will regress to the lowest common denominator, that of scared people who don't know how to speak their mind and often believe we shouldn't lest we offend some one, political correctness gone too far. "

here you're forgetting two basic things, as the mods and members call this place a community, we have just like any nation, society whatever, some basic rights both as individuals and collectively as a community.  The one that is being tried to explain/adhered to by the mods are the rights of this community as a whole. In any club you go, no player is bigger than the club. Same rules apply. Yes DU is a unique place, where individuals, artists(don't forget extra sensitive by nature) and all sorts of humans interact. The aim is to keep those interactions decent and acceptable to the whole of the community which is not much to ask i believe. And just as that vocal minority, or the strong headed individuals who believe they have rights and do their best to project it, the not so strong and the individuals due to their feeble mental health conditions have their rights too. AND NO You CANNOT tell them to take a spoonful of cement and harden up. And standing up to their rights is not being beholden to them. The fact that there is a group and a diverse one at that of mods here and with differing opinions at times is actually a blessing, means everything is debated discussed robustly, this thread itself a proof. And nobody is perfect, but they get the job done. Looking after the vulnerable is just plain simple doing their job, looking through the biased prism of victim mentality, political correctness etc are just tools to brush over the failings of those with the responsibility.

I want you to write a piece of poem, from a person born from one of the minorities, be it an aboriginal individual in the outback, or just a refugee child  born here in a detention centre with no fault of your own. your only fault is the way, the place, the people you are born to in a society that is alien to you. If an English writer can write a book from the point of view of an African woman, i believe it will not be hard for you to  do that. And see what is being termed as political correctness gone too far for what it is.


"
In order to think you have to risk being offensive, standing alone you as an individual are full of biases you don't even know or understand yourself, sometimes the only way to be able to reorient your thinking is to behold a confronting conversation, and if that devolves into a personal insult or two I'm fine with that."

what you have described there is pure experimentation. And it is true that through experiments we learn. But does that mean in order to learn we have to risk damaging fragile individuals( we have to accept some people are born sensitive- cue mental health issue, depression because of mother being subjected to when she was pregnant with that individual, not through some trauma), so is it OK to do that in the cause of "learning' and that too for self? trying to find /explore/orient self? hurting others?

"and here we have the conundrum, what I am fine with, may not suit the next person, then they can run to any mod proclaim I'm "bullying" and hey presto I get reprimanded. I for the most part am an opinionated asshole, and an egotistical one (please don't ban me for bullying myself) and who I am is now under attack, does that constitute bullying? "

well, bullying, Todski i will agree with you, i do believe this term's being used too lightly these days. Anything tough, not to your suiting is termed as bullying(not related to the events of this site). Being opinionated(be it for self or about others) is but natural and is no way wrong. What's wrong i feel i being judgemental(not directed at anyone here just generally speaking).

"this runs around and around, free speech is the only way we can orient ourselves as a community and as a group, yet the constraints in place are to stop those that are more vocal, more aggressive from silencing those that are less aggressive, more agreeable. tipped too far the weakest silence the strongest and we end up in a constant state of censorship (yes I am running these idea to their furthest conclusions, because I am someone who has seen some of the worst shit and had it enacted upon him) "

what i see here is yes taking things too far, you're right to warn about that danger too. But in this instance i don't believe the mods have overstepped so far.

I do however between the sorting of the issue(whilst the thread was locked) felt wronged  when my posts to you in another thread ("Can you kill"- Thread  which was not on that topic which i replied to( coz that thread back then was deleted/hidden)(  i.e. my replies to you and i believe yours to mine and even Ahavati's were removed. I felt outraged coz i did not for once believe neither you, i nor Ahavati had said or done anything wrong to any individual, yes my words were strong, my expression i did not believe was bullying, nor i felt or intended to bully you(a massive lol at that), However that prevented me from expressing anything further in any of the threads yet the only explanation i could gather(coz i did not get a chance to see any replies to my posting there) was David's saying irrelevant/disrespectful to the topic of the thread. I felt, well, he's got a point, but the only reason i posted there was censorship i.e deleting the whole thread instead of the offending posts.
....
[continued in next post coz max char limit reached]

"balance and transparency are in the best interests of a community, hiding behind a shield of, "they can't handle that, so we need to delete it from public discourse" is the epitome of soft bigotry of low expectation. "
indeed they are in the best interest of the community- balance and transparency, and balance is not an easy task.
and regarding the 'soft bigotry" well, again bro, that is YOUR view/opinion, and not the consensus of the community which is trying to give everyone the fair go/the equal opportunity to express themselves without being subjected to harassment/bullying.

"there have been a couple of threads closed down without much of what I saw as a warning, i.e.
"the state of poetry thread" because blackwolf and surichox got a bit heated with each other, maybe in part a reaction to a conversation cold_fusion and I were having, however what they were saying was interesting to me as a reader. where were the bombardments of protestations? how many people requested it be shutdown, for their own "safety"? "

I agree with you re this Tods...i never for a sec felt you crossed the line nor my  answer to you did and already stated how i felt after that.


what happens when this shifts to the poetry we write? how long before a religious person complains about my references to god amidst sex? does my poem then need moderation for its offensive properties? "

there's hundreds if not thousands of such poems on this site of the same nature, referring to God in erotica and all and no one blinks an i i've seen so far. If that was the case the porn industry would go bankrupt coz they can't screen the words "oh my God" during sex scenes... point is...there's a tussle here between those trying to hold the line and those trying to push it, and both have their reasons and no neither the atheist bigotry nor the religious bigotry has taken hold of this so far. the debate amongst the mods and the ex-mods above shows it all.

in any case...after me trying to find time somehow and managing to put across my stupid views/opinions, i see the thread being in danger of itself being locked(LOL).