How Many Here Have Drinking Or Drug Problems?
Umm said:I wouldn't put it past artists to abdicate responsibility for their well being in many ways, it's perhaps the most selfish and unstable career choice imaginable, and besides egotism, also takes a lot of courage and persistence
T.S. Eliot said that "The progress of an artist is a continual self-sacrifice, a continual extinction of personality." ..the same can be said about alcoholics & etc. (although alcoholism is probably less productive)
That's very true. Financially speaking, I'm a total failure and that's primarily due to the fact that I just can't force myself to give a shit about anything besides writing and art.
And, yeah, some would call that "brave" or even claim it's a type of integrity. Which might be true to a point, but it's also very stupid and reckless, even irresponsible.
Yeah, it makes for a great and uplifting "success" story on the rather rare occasions when some do breakthrough. But the odds are so massively against that happening that it must be admitted to not being the smartest life choice in the world.
Simply put: It's something you do because you, at least, feel like you HAVE to. It's a strange and indelible type of derangement that sometimes pays off but usually does not.
T.S. Eliot said that "The progress of an artist is a continual self-sacrifice, a continual extinction of personality." ..the same can be said about alcoholics & etc. (although alcoholism is probably less productive)
That's very true. Financially speaking, I'm a total failure and that's primarily due to the fact that I just can't force myself to give a shit about anything besides writing and art.
And, yeah, some would call that "brave" or even claim it's a type of integrity. Which might be true to a point, but it's also very stupid and reckless, even irresponsible.
Yeah, it makes for a great and uplifting "success" story on the rather rare occasions when some do breakthrough. But the odds are so massively against that happening that it must be admitted to not being the smartest life choice in the world.
Simply put: It's something you do because you, at least, feel like you HAVE to. It's a strange and indelible type of derangement that sometimes pays off but usually does not.
RByron418 said:
Eh, I mean, you're point does have some truth to it in the sense that really any point contains some grain of truth. And it's also rather satisfyingly "edgy" and rebellious enough to be marketed, stocked, and sold at your local Hot Topic.
But all in all, it's overly simplistic and narrow-minded. There is no singular, "one size fits all" motive for anything.
I've known addicts who really were just spoiled brats who just can't seem to tolerate the fact that life doesn't come with immediate gratification; thus, they take matters into their own hands to achieve that immediate gratification regardless of whatever effect it has on themselves or those around them.
The only thing they're trying to "escape" is the reality that they aren't entitled to the pampered upbringing they became accustomed to through childhood and adolescence.
But others are trying to escape genuine pain, trauma, mental illness, etc....
Is it selfish, or at least, self-centered? Of course. Pain makes everyone self-centered, be that pain physical or emotional.
Like, even if you stub your toe really hard, in that moment when you're experiencing that pain, do you care at all about anything or anyone else except your poor toe? No. Pain is DESIGNED to make us self-centered so that we can then resolve whatever is causing that pain before it results in further injury or damage.
And some pain (particularly emotional pain) lasts longer than others and can be chronically recurrent, thus extending the individual's self-centered perspective.
How dare you suggest I'm narrow minded?! God forbid you call me a fool for insisting the world is flat and for accusing you all of murder for eating meat... I'm dreadfully sorry I don't have the time to write you a thesis on alcoholism and substance abuse in the modern era, however I did my best to take a shot at the asshole poet who bought a bottle of JD on the way home from work so he could get drunk and write about ploughing his car into the river, because he wasn't man enough to take responsibility for the shit in his own life and do something more worthwhile...
Ahem, you did make a very good point about "immediate gratification". I found that topic was most insightful in the book "The Philosopher and the Wolf".
Eh, I mean, you're point does have some truth to it in the sense that really any point contains some grain of truth. And it's also rather satisfyingly "edgy" and rebellious enough to be marketed, stocked, and sold at your local Hot Topic.
But all in all, it's overly simplistic and narrow-minded. There is no singular, "one size fits all" motive for anything.
I've known addicts who really were just spoiled brats who just can't seem to tolerate the fact that life doesn't come with immediate gratification; thus, they take matters into their own hands to achieve that immediate gratification regardless of whatever effect it has on themselves or those around them.
The only thing they're trying to "escape" is the reality that they aren't entitled to the pampered upbringing they became accustomed to through childhood and adolescence.
But others are trying to escape genuine pain, trauma, mental illness, etc....
Is it selfish, or at least, self-centered? Of course. Pain makes everyone self-centered, be that pain physical or emotional.
Like, even if you stub your toe really hard, in that moment when you're experiencing that pain, do you care at all about anything or anyone else except your poor toe? No. Pain is DESIGNED to make us self-centered so that we can then resolve whatever is causing that pain before it results in further injury or damage.
And some pain (particularly emotional pain) lasts longer than others and can be chronically recurrent, thus extending the individual's self-centered perspective.
How dare you suggest I'm narrow minded?! God forbid you call me a fool for insisting the world is flat and for accusing you all of murder for eating meat... I'm dreadfully sorry I don't have the time to write you a thesis on alcoholism and substance abuse in the modern era, however I did my best to take a shot at the asshole poet who bought a bottle of JD on the way home from work so he could get drunk and write about ploughing his car into the river, because he wasn't man enough to take responsibility for the shit in his own life and do something more worthwhile...
Ahem, you did make a very good point about "immediate gratification". I found that topic was most insightful in the book "The Philosopher and the Wolf".
Case :
I am just asking with respect :
Are you against all forms of altering the human bio - computer
with substances ( forgive me if you stated something different ) ?
I have known people who "used" to have problems with it , and
accept that other people have their own tolerance levels , and
desires , and I have known others , once they have had problems
do not believe anybody should have access to them...
Do you believe no one , except an established artist , should
indulge in alcohol , or drugs ?
I'm just trying to really hear you , and understand why you
might feel that way...thanks in advance if you choose to
answer my question(s) !
I am just asking with respect :
Are you against all forms of altering the human bio - computer
with substances ( forgive me if you stated something different ) ?
I have known people who "used" to have problems with it , and
accept that other people have their own tolerance levels , and
desires , and I have known others , once they have had problems
do not believe anybody should have access to them...
Do you believe no one , except an established artist , should
indulge in alcohol , or drugs ?
I'm just trying to really hear you , and understand why you
might feel that way...thanks in advance if you choose to
answer my question(s) !
Anonymous
I’ve had a drinking problem in the past. I sought help and therapy for that problem. I’ve crashed and burned a few times in the relapse and recovery of that problem. I don’t beat myself up about it anymore.... most importantly...
At this point I haven’t had a drink for many, many, many months now after I binged myself senseless losing somebody I genuinely loved. I think the break through really came for me when I started to learn how to love myself, and it’s got to the stage now where I can comfortably say y’know what... I’m pretty sure I’m never gonna drink again.
Drinking is such a massive negative for me. No good ever comes of it, or came from it except for my ability to know I never wanna be in that place of self loathing again. My body is fucked as it is, medically. Not drinking is an act of self care, and I matter.
I don’t just want to talk my talk. I want to walk my walk.
I want too.
Me.
At this point I haven’t had a drink for many, many, many months now after I binged myself senseless losing somebody I genuinely loved. I think the break through really came for me when I started to learn how to love myself, and it’s got to the stage now where I can comfortably say y’know what... I’m pretty sure I’m never gonna drink again.
Drinking is such a massive negative for me. No good ever comes of it, or came from it except for my ability to know I never wanna be in that place of self loathing again. My body is fucked as it is, medically. Not drinking is an act of self care, and I matter.
I don’t just want to talk my talk. I want to walk my walk.
I want too.
Me.
Blackwolf said:Case :
I am just asking with respect :
Are you against all forms of altering the human bio - computer
with substances ( forgive me if you stated something different ) ?
I have known people who "used" to have problems with it , and
accept that other people have their own tolerance levels , and
desires , and I have known others , once they have had problems
do not believe anybody should have access to them...
Do you believe no one , except an established artist , should
indulge in alcohol , or drugs ?
I'm just trying to really hear you , and understand why you
might feel that way...thanks in advance if you choose to
answer my question(s) !
No, I'm not against altering one's human bio or mind with substances. I believe in freedom of choice. I also believe drugs should be legalised. What people do to their bodies and minds is their own business.
What I'm against is the glorification of drugs and alcohol in society and the badge of honour associated with getting high and wasted. I find it concerning that art teachers are encouraging students to experiment with drugs and psychedelics. I have an issue with peer pressure on youth and the shitty role models kids have when mum and dad associate a good time or adversity with a bottle of booze.
I respect artists and writers, because of the sacrifices they make to "focus" on their creativity. I just question why an artist can't be confident enough in their own ability, life experiences and inspiration to live a creative life, and do it clean, without relying on drugs and alcohol. Perhaps that has something to with the individual's personality, environment, mentors and state of mind.
I am just asking with respect :
Are you against all forms of altering the human bio - computer
with substances ( forgive me if you stated something different ) ?
I have known people who "used" to have problems with it , and
accept that other people have their own tolerance levels , and
desires , and I have known others , once they have had problems
do not believe anybody should have access to them...
Do you believe no one , except an established artist , should
indulge in alcohol , or drugs ?
I'm just trying to really hear you , and understand why you
might feel that way...thanks in advance if you choose to
answer my question(s) !
No, I'm not against altering one's human bio or mind with substances. I believe in freedom of choice. I also believe drugs should be legalised. What people do to their bodies and minds is their own business.
What I'm against is the glorification of drugs and alcohol in society and the badge of honour associated with getting high and wasted. I find it concerning that art teachers are encouraging students to experiment with drugs and psychedelics. I have an issue with peer pressure on youth and the shitty role models kids have when mum and dad associate a good time or adversity with a bottle of booze.
I respect artists and writers, because of the sacrifices they make to "focus" on their creativity. I just question why an artist can't be confident enough in their own ability, life experiences and inspiration to live a creative life, and do it clean, without relying on drugs and alcohol. Perhaps that has something to with the individual's personality, environment, mentors and state of mind.
case28 said:
No, I'm not against altering one's human bio or mind with substances. I believe in freedom of choice. I also believe drugs should be legalised. What people do to their bodies and minds is their own business.
What I'm against is the glorification of drugs and alcohol in society and the badge of honour associated with getting high and wasted. I find it concerning that art teachers are encouraging students to experiment with drugs and psychedelics. I have an issue with peer pressure on youth and the shitty role models kids have when mum and dad associate a good time or adversity with a bottle of booze.
I respect artists and writers, because of the sacrifices they make to "focus" on their creativity. I just question why an artist can't be confident enough in their own ability, life experiences and inspiration to live a creative life, and do it clean, without relying on drugs and alcohol. Perhaps that has something to with the individual's personality, environment, mentors and state of mind.
Firstly , thank you for the polite answer...
As per my first post I made in this thread , I grew up in the fifties as a child ,
where the alcohol was quite accepted , not "necessarily" to get drunk , yet
that did occur with frequency in many households ( guests / social gatherings )
and it was seen as a way to relax for parents , especially fathers , after a long
day at work ;
I , as well was a teen at the time of Tim Leary , and Ram Dass ( Richard Albert )
and in grade school had written a paper on Albert Hoffman...
So , there was a whole different viewpoint then , than now...
Things have gotten out of hand , ( somewhat ) but I do have a different view
than many here , as I spent about half my life living in the San Francisco Bay
area , and Northern California , where alteration of consciousness by drugs
especially has always been prevalent...
And I knew Peter Stafford from Santa Cruz , Ca. , when he wrote this...
https://www.amazon.com/Psychedelics-Encyclopedia-Peter-Stafford-ebook/dp/B00BVTW2PA
I use the word altered , rather than "high , or wasted" as to me those that use
those words , miss the point , and I have known many that fit that category ,
and avoid that scene ;
As a teacher , privately of the Craft , and ancient traditions , I do not , nor would
I advocate drug usage , however I do teach where it has been used , by whom
and for what purposes , especially if asked...I also advise regarding dangers of
such behavior , and recommend , as I said in my first post , the work on the
eight circuitry system , and how substances affect the body and consciousness ,
as I also recommend "High Priest" , by Tim Leary , which addresses drugs , dosage
and setting ( environment ) when ingesting such , if one chooses that path...
I must say living in the U.S. , at the present time I would not blame anyone for
ingesting larger amounts of drugs than normal , considering what a poor example
of humanity we have , as head of our country...
I do believe artists may or may not be able to see through eyes they need to to
produce the type of art , or artistic statement they choose to make manifest
without substances to alter consciousness perception ;
Some can , some can't...I would term it individual wiring...
If some attempted what I did , many would be in a nuthouse , or dead...
Yet if I had not done what I did , or have a few ( not a case , or twelve pack )
beers , every few days , I would be in the nuthouse , due to the stresses I
feel in regard to the world situation...
Of course most would be taking pills , promoted by drug companies , and
not even take into account the idea that they all propagate mind and body
alteration through various forms of media , bombarding the young , all the
way through to the elderly with advertisements...continually...
Finally , I feel you said it well , with your final statement :
"Perhaps that has something to with the individual's
personality, environment, mentors and state of mind."
Thank you again for your answer !
No, I'm not against altering one's human bio or mind with substances. I believe in freedom of choice. I also believe drugs should be legalised. What people do to their bodies and minds is their own business.
What I'm against is the glorification of drugs and alcohol in society and the badge of honour associated with getting high and wasted. I find it concerning that art teachers are encouraging students to experiment with drugs and psychedelics. I have an issue with peer pressure on youth and the shitty role models kids have when mum and dad associate a good time or adversity with a bottle of booze.
I respect artists and writers, because of the sacrifices they make to "focus" on their creativity. I just question why an artist can't be confident enough in their own ability, life experiences and inspiration to live a creative life, and do it clean, without relying on drugs and alcohol. Perhaps that has something to with the individual's personality, environment, mentors and state of mind.
Firstly , thank you for the polite answer...
As per my first post I made in this thread , I grew up in the fifties as a child ,
where the alcohol was quite accepted , not "necessarily" to get drunk , yet
that did occur with frequency in many households ( guests / social gatherings )
and it was seen as a way to relax for parents , especially fathers , after a long
day at work ;
I , as well was a teen at the time of Tim Leary , and Ram Dass ( Richard Albert )
and in grade school had written a paper on Albert Hoffman...
So , there was a whole different viewpoint then , than now...
Things have gotten out of hand , ( somewhat ) but I do have a different view
than many here , as I spent about half my life living in the San Francisco Bay
area , and Northern California , where alteration of consciousness by drugs
especially has always been prevalent...
And I knew Peter Stafford from Santa Cruz , Ca. , when he wrote this...
https://www.amazon.com/Psychedelics-Encyclopedia-Peter-Stafford-ebook/dp/B00BVTW2PA
I use the word altered , rather than "high , or wasted" as to me those that use
those words , miss the point , and I have known many that fit that category ,
and avoid that scene ;
As a teacher , privately of the Craft , and ancient traditions , I do not , nor would
I advocate drug usage , however I do teach where it has been used , by whom
and for what purposes , especially if asked...I also advise regarding dangers of
such behavior , and recommend , as I said in my first post , the work on the
eight circuitry system , and how substances affect the body and consciousness ,
as I also recommend "High Priest" , by Tim Leary , which addresses drugs , dosage
and setting ( environment ) when ingesting such , if one chooses that path...
I must say living in the U.S. , at the present time I would not blame anyone for
ingesting larger amounts of drugs than normal , considering what a poor example
of humanity we have , as head of our country...
I do believe artists may or may not be able to see through eyes they need to to
produce the type of art , or artistic statement they choose to make manifest
without substances to alter consciousness perception ;
Some can , some can't...I would term it individual wiring...
If some attempted what I did , many would be in a nuthouse , or dead...
Yet if I had not done what I did , or have a few ( not a case , or twelve pack )
beers , every few days , I would be in the nuthouse , due to the stresses I
feel in regard to the world situation...
Of course most would be taking pills , promoted by drug companies , and
not even take into account the idea that they all propagate mind and body
alteration through various forms of media , bombarding the young , all the
way through to the elderly with advertisements...continually...
Finally , I feel you said it well , with your final statement :
"Perhaps that has something to with the individual's
personality, environment, mentors and state of mind."
Thank you again for your answer !
case28 said:
No, I'm not against altering one's human bio or mind with substances. I believe in freedom of choice. I also believe drugs should be legalised. What people do to their bodies and minds is their own business.
What I'm against is the glorification of drugs and alcohol in society and the badge of honour associated with getting high and wasted. I find it concerning that art teachers are encouraging students to experiment with drugs and psychedelics. I have an issue with peer pressure on youth and the shitty role models kids have when mum and dad associate a good time or adversity with a bottle of booze.
I respect artists and writers, because of the sacrifices they make to "focus" on their creativity. I just question why an artist can't be confident enough in their own ability, life experiences and inspiration to live a creative life, and do it clean, without relying on drugs and alcohol. Perhaps that has something to with the individual's personality, environment, mentors and state of mind.
I actually agree with you here. There's this rather toxic myth that continues to persist that drinking and using drugs either makes one creative or enhances their creativity. And that's just utter nonsense.
My own personal experience with alcoholism is that the further down the bottle I go, the more it stifles and stunts my creativity.
I also do smoke weed regularly, though it's never caused me any problems. On the contrary, it's helped a lot in me easing off the booze. BUT weed has never "enhanced" my creativity.
I've also done acid and shrooms, which may actually enhance creativity to an extent, but only after the fact because of the unique experience it creates. I mean, anything that makes you see things that you normally wouldn't see and experience can contribute to creativity. It doesn't have to be drugs. Meditation and lucid dreaming work just as well in that regard, if not better.
But you're completely right in being opposed to the glorification of alcohol and drugs as some sort of magic elixir that creates genius. Hell, if that were true, every drunk and junkie in the world would be a Beethoven, Van Gogh, etc....
People too often forget that correlation does not equal causation. Just because so many artists have substance abuse problems does NOT mean that it's the substance abuse that causes them to be an artist.
I have various ideas of the factors that may have led to this myth, the main one being that our Judeo-Christian background prevents us from ever allowing or admitting to pleasure for the sake of pleasure. Thus, we tend to feel obligated to invent some lofty rationalization to justify our enjoyment of intoxication.
When the truth is, we get high because we enjoy feeling high, that's it. But that's a "sin", just like having sex solely for the fact that sex feels good is also a "sin". So (though we dropped the "wait till you're married" line) we tell everyone, especially young people, to wait till you meet someone "special" and are "in love"; even though very VERY few of us actually practice that.
And this deranged neurosis has coagulated into the myth we're discussing.
To quote the Marilyn Manson song Dope Hat (which is about this very topic):
"Failed to see the tragic
turn it into magic
my big top tricks will always make you happy
but we all know the hat is wearing me"
No, I'm not against altering one's human bio or mind with substances. I believe in freedom of choice. I also believe drugs should be legalised. What people do to their bodies and minds is their own business.
What I'm against is the glorification of drugs and alcohol in society and the badge of honour associated with getting high and wasted. I find it concerning that art teachers are encouraging students to experiment with drugs and psychedelics. I have an issue with peer pressure on youth and the shitty role models kids have when mum and dad associate a good time or adversity with a bottle of booze.
I respect artists and writers, because of the sacrifices they make to "focus" on their creativity. I just question why an artist can't be confident enough in their own ability, life experiences and inspiration to live a creative life, and do it clean, without relying on drugs and alcohol. Perhaps that has something to with the individual's personality, environment, mentors and state of mind.
I actually agree with you here. There's this rather toxic myth that continues to persist that drinking and using drugs either makes one creative or enhances their creativity. And that's just utter nonsense.
My own personal experience with alcoholism is that the further down the bottle I go, the more it stifles and stunts my creativity.
I also do smoke weed regularly, though it's never caused me any problems. On the contrary, it's helped a lot in me easing off the booze. BUT weed has never "enhanced" my creativity.
I've also done acid and shrooms, which may actually enhance creativity to an extent, but only after the fact because of the unique experience it creates. I mean, anything that makes you see things that you normally wouldn't see and experience can contribute to creativity. It doesn't have to be drugs. Meditation and lucid dreaming work just as well in that regard, if not better.
But you're completely right in being opposed to the glorification of alcohol and drugs as some sort of magic elixir that creates genius. Hell, if that were true, every drunk and junkie in the world would be a Beethoven, Van Gogh, etc....
People too often forget that correlation does not equal causation. Just because so many artists have substance abuse problems does NOT mean that it's the substance abuse that causes them to be an artist.
I have various ideas of the factors that may have led to this myth, the main one being that our Judeo-Christian background prevents us from ever allowing or admitting to pleasure for the sake of pleasure. Thus, we tend to feel obligated to invent some lofty rationalization to justify our enjoyment of intoxication.
When the truth is, we get high because we enjoy feeling high, that's it. But that's a "sin", just like having sex solely for the fact that sex feels good is also a "sin". So (though we dropped the "wait till you're married" line) we tell everyone, especially young people, to wait till you meet someone "special" and are "in love"; even though very VERY few of us actually practice that.
And this deranged neurosis has coagulated into the myth we're discussing.
To quote the Marilyn Manson song Dope Hat (which is about this very topic):
"Failed to see the tragic
turn it into magic
my big top tricks will always make you happy
but we all know the hat is wearing me"
Here I must disagree with you , Byron...
You are ignoring we are all different , and substances affect each differently...
There is a reason there is a *truth* , not a myth , certain people experience
increased creativity , thru smaller amounts ( which is relative to each person )
of alcohol , and certain drugs , others , and it sounds like this applies to you ,
and some others and though I respect Marilyn Manson , he is just another human ,
do not have the experience of increased creativity...
That can occur due to personal wiring , and / or a burning out due to overuse over
time of certain neural pathways , or cells themselves...yet , it can also depend on the
type of alcohol , environment , ( which if one is in a depressing environment , physical ,
mental , emotional it will affect the result ) Same with drugs ;
As far as meditation , lucid dreaming , chanting , or methods such as shamanic style
drumming , yes , they all have effects , yet the effects are *not* the same as drugs or
alcohol...this has been proven under tests conducted on the human brain , yet again
I must admit , again those effects are in general , individual ;
( we must also look at purity levels of drugs , age regarding when they were produced
and particular strains having different effects such as in marijuana...where I live we
have a Cannabis Cup contest each year , and that is one of the considerations when
being judged...and there are literally hundreds , many hundreds of varieties )
Now you may have a Judeo-Christian background , as do I , yet I rejected that whole
programming before I was thirteen , and the larger percentage of the world population ,
did not have that upbringing , though they might have had other forms of repression
instilled into their consciousness ;
I never "invented" some rationalization , nor most of those in my circle then and now...
We choose to do it , because *it works* ( for us )
So I heartily dispute the idea of the "myth" , as for many , it is a *truth* that certain substances
in certain dosages under certain conditions , does most definitely enhance creativity...
However , once more I state : It is individual in effect , not as you previously said , a one size fits all...;)
You are ignoring we are all different , and substances affect each differently...
There is a reason there is a *truth* , not a myth , certain people experience
increased creativity , thru smaller amounts ( which is relative to each person )
of alcohol , and certain drugs , others , and it sounds like this applies to you ,
and some others and though I respect Marilyn Manson , he is just another human ,
do not have the experience of increased creativity...
That can occur due to personal wiring , and / or a burning out due to overuse over
time of certain neural pathways , or cells themselves...yet , it can also depend on the
type of alcohol , environment , ( which if one is in a depressing environment , physical ,
mental , emotional it will affect the result ) Same with drugs ;
As far as meditation , lucid dreaming , chanting , or methods such as shamanic style
drumming , yes , they all have effects , yet the effects are *not* the same as drugs or
alcohol...this has been proven under tests conducted on the human brain , yet again
I must admit , again those effects are in general , individual ;
( we must also look at purity levels of drugs , age regarding when they were produced
and particular strains having different effects such as in marijuana...where I live we
have a Cannabis Cup contest each year , and that is one of the considerations when
being judged...and there are literally hundreds , many hundreds of varieties )
Now you may have a Judeo-Christian background , as do I , yet I rejected that whole
programming before I was thirteen , and the larger percentage of the world population ,
did not have that upbringing , though they might have had other forms of repression
instilled into their consciousness ;
I never "invented" some rationalization , nor most of those in my circle then and now...
We choose to do it , because *it works* ( for us )
So I heartily dispute the idea of the "myth" , as for many , it is a *truth* that certain substances
in certain dosages under certain conditions , does most definitely enhance creativity...
However , once more I state : It is individual in effect , not as you previously said , a one size fits all...;)
Years ago, I kicked alcohol out of my life. I've also stopped experimenting with "harder" drugs. I do on occasion partake in marijuana, usually at the music studio, not of necessity though.. Now, I will say, cigarettes are an absolute beast. By far the strongest hold on me.. 🤦
