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guns in Teachers hands

Poetryman
Tyrant of Words
United States 29awards
Joined 14th Aug 2011
Forum Posts: 1530

Absolutely not!
First of all, I was a Teacher's Aide, also a hall monitor and a Youth Division Aide in a reform school. At each of those lobs there were a variety of violent situations where I can see it ending in a much worse outcome than they did with no guns involved. The probability of deaths would dramatically increase if teachers or aides had guns. I had extensive training in restraining students who were being violent to one degree or another and I can imagine many scenarios where a gun could easily be taken away from a teacher and be used against them and other students.

Teachers have way too much to do already. It's a very stressful job as it is even with the assistance of an aide in a classroom. With all the bullying, fights and other disruptive behavior hat goes on all day long, every day, adding the stress of a gun would be so much worse.

How many times have you heard about cops shooting unarmed people and then say they thought they saw a gun? Those are police who get constant training on firing a gun in different situations and being correct every time. But they are not correct every time. That's not a situation you want happening in classrooms if you have a kid who is being very disruptive or a fight breaks out. Fights can be faked too. What if two students pretend to fight and the teacher gets jumped in the process of trying to break it up. One of them grabs he gun and starts shooting. Could happen in a real fight. Now two students are fighting to get the teacher's gun. No way should there be guns in the hands of teachers! Too much can go wrong even when someone else has a gun. Stray bullets in a shootout can end up killing more innocent bystanders.

In my high school, where I also worked as a TA and a hall monitor, they had two on duty police officers at all times. Thankfully there were no shootings in the school. They also did police drills where we went into lock down while about a dozen cops with police dogs search the halls and lockers for drugs and weapons on a regular basis.

Our school had many fights and restraints were common. No deaths, but if we had guns in teacher's hands, I have no doubt there would have been.

JJ

Ahavati
Tyrant of Words
United States 116awards
Joined 11th Apr 2015
Forum Posts: 14270

They can't afford books, papers, or pens but can provide glocks?

BS.

Viddax
Lord Viddax
Guardian of Shadows
United Kingdom 31awards
Joined 10th Oct 2009
Forum Posts: 6672

An eye for an eye makes us all blind.

Besides which, it makes the possibility of a shooting even more likely if there is a gun already in the classroom. Arm them with knowledge and compassion, not weapons; an arms race only runs further from peace and progress.

Peganghoul20
Paganghoul3
Twisted Dreamer
Joined 12th May 2017
Forum Posts: 3

Of course America's solution is even more guns.Im all for protection in school but this is ridiculous.

Poetryman
Tyrant of Words
United States 29awards
Joined 14th Aug 2011
Forum Posts: 1530

Ahavati said:They can't afford books, papers, or pens but can provide glocks?

BS.


All too true Ahavati! We used to gather together funds each month among the teachers and aides and go to the store to buy supplies for our students who could not afford the basics. So many kids came to school without pens, pencils or notebooks. The school did not supply them. We paid for them out of our pockets. This happens nationwide.
I saw a story about them wanting something like 400,000 handguns for teachers across America. Of course the NRA and gun manufacturers love the idea. So much money to fill their pockets with.
If gun manufacturers support this idea, I wonder if they wouldn't mind donating the guns. WHAT? No profit???
Even if they did it, I'd still be against it for all the reasons above. It will lead to more violence and death.

Prisons have guards with guns, yet there are still prison riots. Banks and armored cars  have armed guards yet there are still armed robberies.
We have made bigger bombs and the enemies make bigger bombs.

More guns just makes more dead people...
JJ

Peganghoul20
Paganghoul3
Twisted Dreamer
Joined 12th May 2017
Forum Posts: 3

So does anyone have any solutions to stopping school shootings in a manner that hasn't already been mentioned?

I've talked with friends and co-workers on this issue many times but they don't have the slightest idea.

Ahavati
Tyrant of Words
United States 116awards
Joined 11th Apr 2015
Forum Posts: 14270


Poetryman
Tyrant of Words
United States 29awards
Joined 14th Aug 2011
Forum Posts: 1530

A note of observation. It came out today there was an armed guard on duty at the school who did nothing. A deputy, stationed at the school and stood outside doing nothing. If a cop didn't have the guts to go in and shoot the killer, how can anyone expect teachers who have no desire to kill the students they teach just because you hand them a gun.

The deputy got suspended, so he decided to take an early retirement.

MadameLavender
Guardian of Shadows
United States 86awards
Joined 17th Feb 2013
Forum Posts: 5594

Adding more guns isn't the answer.  As a teacher myself , I don't go to class to carry a firearm, I go to instruct future lab techs.  Personally, there needs to be airport style security at the main school entrances and all other doors are for fire exits only.  Turn out your pockets, bag searches , metal detectors and diligent guards who have the balls to do their jobs.   Everyone from students to visitors, get the same shakedown upon entry.

God-Is-In-The-Rain
Gregory Rain
Twisted Dreamer
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Joined 28th Oct 2016
Forum Posts: 50

I'm pretty sure someone had already made that point, but let me say that being a teacher can be and often is a very stressful experience - speaking from both sides (as a student and as a person who had taught a class (although just /very/ few lessons))
Like... I know that to someone like Marco Rubio it might seem that all children are just smiley sweet creatures.
But anyone who has experience with working with children over longer period of time, has children or really just has the capacity to accurately remember /themselves/ as children knows that about 70? % of the time (might vary by specimen) they are basically just little selfish monsters with zero ability for empathy.

I say that's one thing that makes in once more obvious that arming teachers with guns is a bad idea but... some people just need to hear someones personal experience to make their mind regardless of objective facts (looking at you anti-vacciners -,-) so here's mine.
To me putting in place a system where teachers have guns is putting a system where I have been shot to death /two times/.

But let's only talk about this one. (because it's an example easier to imagine, and because, despite i was a /terrible/ child, it doesn't depict me as such so much)
So, as a kid i have been sent by child-psychologist (or however you call those in english) to a private school.... still don't know whether for being "too smart" or "too stupid" but definitely because the Psychologist hated my guts. with few exceptions, the class was full of rich-peoples children. And we had a teacher there, she had her kid in the school... because... her kid was mentally challenged and needed special care.
Every time she gave us a test. The kid too /a lot/ of beating from my rich-kid-classmates.
The teacher wasn't happy about it obviously, but it was private school. Student = customer. And so nobody was willing to do anything about it. Because if one of my classmates decided/was forced to go elsewhere? Less money for school.
She was taking it bravely, clinked on her belief that "There was good in everyone" and that "We would grow out of it"
One day in history class we were talking about modern terrorism. And the teacher played us documentary about it (which was the only way possible to teach, if not in whole school then definitely in our class)
And there was this lady pursued by mob of men who obviously wanted to lynch and rape her.
And my classmates begun to making fun of the lady, imitating her and screaming "no please" through the class while laughing.
That was the last straw.
In that moment she wished we all were dead - no exception.
In that moment had she had a gun that would be her solution.
For a second she wanted to kill at least one of us.
But she couldn't choose which.
So she took down the projection.
Turned off the computer.
And left the class.


Obviously I wasn't among those laughing at the woman from the documentary. Nor was i among those bullying her kid. (but honestly could do a lot more to try to stop it). The reason I'm so sure why the school refused to be persecuting my classmates for their actions is actually because i have been trying to get administration, and owners to take actions - and when they finally grew tired of me - this was what i have been told by them.
So i wasn't taking active participation in "hobbies" of my other classmates. But had she begun shooting? I would be among the dead. And honestly, I wouldn't blame her. I'm sure Tv and news would depict her as crazy and unstable. And I'm sure your first instinct would be to condemn her too. But had you have a gun... and were in her situation. Tell me as a parent - what would you do?

Anyway the point is that giving guns to teachers results in more dead children.
Even if your teachers are among the strongest in population.
It will still result in more dead children.

And if you think that maybe our class and classes alike  maybe /should have been/ murdered. I wonder, weren't /you/ one of my classmates? (:

I mean... Americans.
You have about 101 guns/100 people - which is not counting the illegal ones. I get you like second amendment. But i feel like you don't know the first half of it. And no it is not "A great number guns of good rate of fire are necessary to be given to every person of a free state to keep it secured". If you have enough guns for every man, woman and child in the country, /and then some/. and you want to lower the gun violence by /putting out more guns/.

There's something SERIOUSLY WRONG with you.

Poetryman
Tyrant of Words
United States 29awards
Joined 14th Aug 2011
Forum Posts: 1530

I don't know what country you are in, but when you say "you Americans" it becomes clear you are not from here. We are as diverse as we are divided here. I am personally against gun ownership. I grew up in a family of hunters and have fired many guns at targets and animals, but my father taught me gun safety and respect for humans. Unfortunately there is plenty of hate in the world and everywhere that people have weapons, they find reasons to use them. Seems like the slightest bit of anger gets gun owners ready to blow someone's head off. Take away the guns and at least people have a fighting chance.

Teachers here get all kinds of verbal abuse from students and I can see a number of teachers pulling out a gun if they have one, just to stop verbal abuse. Then a dumbass student going, "go ahead and shoot me". And then it escalates from there until the gun goes off. Student behavior in class is often way over the top. It is not easy to get through a lesson without some type of disruption between students or between students and the teacher.

The problem has been going on forever and putting a gun in the class won't be a deterrent to bad behavior, but that's what it will be used for once it is there. The proponents of this idea think it will be there just in case of a school shooting, but it will wind up being used as a tool for a teacher who can't control the class otherwise, or it can be taken away and used against them and the class by an angry student who decides to flip out,  or by a gang that wants to create some chaos and carnage.

The whole gun thing came about because the British became terrorists here and after we won the war, we felt the need to have enough guns to fight off any future attempts to take back control. That happens all over the world all of the time. I don't think there has been one day in hundreds of years where there hasn't been a war going on. So as soon as you put guns in everyone's hands, there is bound to be killings.
It's just easier to shoot someone than win an argument. And that is why not eveyone should have one.

iowahuman
Twisted Dreamer
United States
Joined 19th Oct 2015
Forum Posts: 42

wouldn't we all be safer if these guns were gone? occam's razor - guns=death

God-Is-In-The-Rain
Gregory Rain
Twisted Dreamer
1awards
Joined 28th Oct 2016
Forum Posts: 50

Today, the idea behind gun ownership... Or one of them anyway, is to ensure the country stays democratic. In other words, people stand a fighting chance if their government turned into autocracy, and went on to violently oppress its population into obedience. (At least so i believe) that is why, as far as my knowledge goes, only north Korea had banned guns completely, and while the laws vary, all other countries allow their populations to have weapons, even countries like china (altho, not for mentioned reason, private ownership is officially prohibited, but government supplies with guns people who need them (for example for hunting)).
Of course, there is no other country with as many legally owned guns as US.
To put that statement to perspective: Canada? 30.8 guns per 100 people. Mexico? 15 guns/100 people. And again, US: 101guns/100 people.

Maybe /one too many guns/ in the country no? (pun intended) Not to mention those aren't just handguns and hunting rifles, but also semi-automatic weapons like AR-15.... Because nothing says democracy like a gun designed for professional armed forces, sold with little to none regulation as a "sporting weapon" giving you ability to kill 30 of your neighbors as fast as you're able to be pulling the trigger.


As for me not being American, yes, i am not. I find it funny though that US government is, with a straight face,  proposing a solution /EVERY SANE PERSON/ - not just in America, but IN THE WORLD! can agree is the worst possible idea....

chump
Thought Provoker
United States 6awards
Joined 30th Sep 2014
Forum Posts: 417

Ever since the " gun free zones " were established in American schools, school shootings have increased in a big way.

How is it safer to not have guns legal on school grounds when it doesn't stop criminals that don't follow the laws and then call someone with a gun to help, giving the shooter plenty of time to kill without being in danger themselves.

In israel since the arming of teachers, there have been virtually no school shootings.

In America the news media ignore the school shootings that end with only the perpetrators being killed by armed school security because it doesn't fit their gun grabbing narrative..

It doesn't require all teachers to be armed just the ones that want to and pass the training.

You may not like guns but criminals do and only good people with guns can stop criminals with them.

Our children should not be left in danger, un protected just for political reasons.

God-Is-In-The-Rain
Gregory Rain
Twisted Dreamer
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Joined 28th Oct 2016
Forum Posts: 50

More guns /Will/ mean more dead children
If not because of criminals, then because of accidents.

The "gun free" ones i believe were inspired by the laws of other countries, so perhaps lets look at the data.
In my country there had been 1 school shooting since 1968. (2015 in Uhersky Brod), to be fair, my country is fairly small, we only have 10,5 milion people, thats 1 school shooting /per 10,5 milion people ratio.
In Usa, if i understand it correctly there had been around 270 school shootings (article from 2016, cit.1) since 1999, i have counted 380 since 1960 (manually, cit.2), Usa has 325,7 milion people, so if we go with the lower number of shootings, that is 1 school shooting per 1,2 milion people.
about ten times higher.
and if you don't like numbers by the population, between 1999 and 2012 there were 31 school shootings in the USA, and 14 in the rest of the world combined. I believe whatever metric you use (perhaps apart from number of US flags/m^3), the world is bigger than USA, and generally there are tougher laws on guns... than in usa.

For example in my country things like AR15 are out of limits as far as civilians are concerned (because why the hell would you need such gun), and to have a weapon, you need to undergo safety training and a medical exam. If you take a weapon to school you're expelled (we don't have metal detectors, its just common sense) - so fair enough technically we do not have "gun free zones". If you take your gun - for example to public transport? may not be a rule, but when a husband of my former English teacher (both American (Texas)) took his one to a tram, the driver left his seat and kindly asked the man to leave.

so no, more guns are not a solution. In fact, if you insist on that - go on and try it. Just remember that when statistics show that your NRA inspired solution results in more dead children - i will be there to inform you that their blood is on your hand. Or - rather on your ignorance of reality and facts that don't support your narrative.
But then - I'm sure someone will come and claim that no - actually you don't have enough dead cild- i mean guns around yet.

Well, another thing is that media perpetuate shootings by how they treat the shooters. All the "expalantions" on motives, reasons, background ect. Perhaps has good shock value and boosts views, but also inspires further shooters...
Altho I'm A) not a psychologist and B) not sure if we do reporting on this differently in my country so perhaps I'm not informed well enough to further this part of conversation.


At any rate - Data are clear.
Gregory (Mr.Rain is unavailable)

cit.1: https://abcnews.go.com/US/school-shootings-columbine-numbers/story?id=36833245
cit.2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States#1960s

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