What makes Capitalism great? Or bad for that matter?
+ One benefit of capitalism is competition: multiple business offering a service or product to the consumer, theoretically giving the consumer options and leading to the best business (quality and quantity of service or product) becoming the dominant one/ winning out in the end.
- A flaw of capitalism is multiple businesses all clamouring to provide a service, such as trains, which could be better managed and operated within a single state run setting. The state theoretically having enough influence or money or clout, to simply throw people and or money at a problem to fix it quickly to minimal setback for the consumer/public.
+ Innovation. With the economy based off of capital, and multiple businesses in capitalism, each one or indeed each person wants to make the most capital so in turn they want their 'thing' to be as efficient as possible; thereby leading to innovation to improve the thing to reduce costs and or increase revenue.
- Wants not needs. Money as the root of all evil, as the saying goes; the buying and selling of goods and or services that may well be more a case of want than fundamental need. No one literally needs a tablet device to live, (food, water, shelter), but they are very good at enabling those things (grocery shopping, online house browsing and buying.)
Could very well say a bunch more with plusses and minuses but that could get tedious. Suffice to say, as craic said "I don't think any of the -isms are ideal for society." However I would propose that no single -ism is ideal for society; that a mix and diversity is a better way. Means that should one fail, life as it is known does not suddenly collapse. The ideal is to have each ism interplaying with each other. Well, the true ideal I guess is a society that just works without needing labels, might be a failing of modern 'enlightened' society where labels and terms are thrown about like bag guys in an action movie: all show but sometimes little substance and meaning.
- A flaw of capitalism is multiple businesses all clamouring to provide a service, such as trains, which could be better managed and operated within a single state run setting. The state theoretically having enough influence or money or clout, to simply throw people and or money at a problem to fix it quickly to minimal setback for the consumer/public.
+ Innovation. With the economy based off of capital, and multiple businesses in capitalism, each one or indeed each person wants to make the most capital so in turn they want their 'thing' to be as efficient as possible; thereby leading to innovation to improve the thing to reduce costs and or increase revenue.
- Wants not needs. Money as the root of all evil, as the saying goes; the buying and selling of goods and or services that may well be more a case of want than fundamental need. No one literally needs a tablet device to live, (food, water, shelter), but they are very good at enabling those things (grocery shopping, online house browsing and buying.)
Could very well say a bunch more with plusses and minuses but that could get tedious. Suffice to say, as craic said "I don't think any of the -isms are ideal for society." However I would propose that no single -ism is ideal for society; that a mix and diversity is a better way. Means that should one fail, life as it is known does not suddenly collapse. The ideal is to have each ism interplaying with each other. Well, the true ideal I guess is a society that just works without needing labels, might be a failing of modern 'enlightened' society where labels and terms are thrown about like bag guys in an action movie: all show but sometimes little substance and meaning.
Viddax said:Suffice to say, as craic said "I don't think any of the -isms are ideal for society." However I would propose that no single -ism is ideal for society; that a mix and diversity is a better way. Means that should one fail, life as it is known does not suddenly collapse. The ideal is to have each ism interplaying with each other. Well, the true ideal I guess is a society that just works without needing labels, might be a failing of modern 'enlightened' society where labels and terms are thrown about like bag guys in an action movie: all show but sometimes little substance and meaning.
spot on! both Viddax and Lepp!
yes , humanity hasn't yet found don't have a silver bullet yet. And there in lies the folly, the belief-one remedy for all ills, along with one size fits all approach resulting in so much misery to so many humans across the globe!
People across the globe are different not saying not equal, but different. What's acceptable to some is extremely offending to others and that has great lot to do with the prevalent culture that's evolved with time. And to assume, mine is the only correct approach is absolutely naive.
4+5 = 9
so does 6+3 and 7+2 and so on...different approaches for same result.
Whatever -isms you're talking about, let's not forget, the aim, supposedly is to ensure we humans, as a society live in safety, security,freedom and ensure prosperity for all( both at an individual level and as a society/nation/block etc) . All of the -isms say they aim to get it.
The biggest lie perpetuated in the west is Socialism is Communism.
You fail when you believe you're the only right one and everyone else is wrong. That is simply Bullying. And that is what the so called democratic west is doing in the places that somehow not heeding its diktat.
Well, all -isms have killed millions, not just communism, the Nazis were neither a socialist bunch nor were they communists. The so called enlightened defenders of freedoms the back then imperial super powers of Britain and their Mainland allies, whilst fighting the nazis, in the name securing freedom in Europe, were crushing the so called terrorist rebels in Southern Asia and Africa whose crime was to stand up and ask/fight for freedom for themselves. So much for the holy cow that is democracy. Long story short, nothing is perfect, yes, the west with its relatively tamed capitalism for the best part of about half a century or more has succeeded in affording many of the objective the human society endeavours i.e relative individual freedoms, opportunity and yes prosperity.
And now what's happening? anything taken in extreme quantities becomes toxic, including clean pure water, the growth at all costs and ever increasing power of the corporations and by extension capitalism gone wild, is making the governments but a pawn in its game is eroding the ideals the western democracy set out to achieve.
One prime example- the pharma sector, should it only be a profit driven industry? of course yes, but to what level, Ok, i get it , that without profit, what's the incentive for a company to find new drugs and fund the research and the drug company is entitled to reap the reward for it's effort and get a fair return on its investments. In third world countries, those same companies charge hundreds of times less(not just percentages,but times) for the same drug they charge in the Western world. And the cost recovery and fair return on investment argument goes out the window,nothing to do with the cost, what comes to play is capitalistic principles. Are these principles God sent? and for whose benefit are they supposed to stand for?
And then, due to the falling ideals of the western democracy,resulting from the untamed/extreme adherence to capitalism, people, especially the middle class are getting squeezed out and resulting in human misery. And as they say every crisis is an opportunity, we have people professing remedies whilst profiting and enriching themselves off people's misery and primal fears.
Human migration is one of the hottest topic these days. The so called ills it brings, the clashes of cultures etc, the us vs them mentality and stoking of irrational fears is big driver in the manipulation of the masses. The so called nativists these days( whilst they do not hide their love for the Nazis) pelt so much misinformation and half truths whilst claiming to be speaking rational truth. Any information to the contrary is dismissed as conspiracy theory or as Donald Trump likes to say,fake news. He who speaks the loudest not necessarily is speaking the truth.
So all in all, capitalism but within limits alongside socialism seems to work well, relatively speaking. Australia, much more egalitarian society compared the US. Good case in point. But again, the capitalism there too is crossing its limits and at the same time blaming it on the socialist aspect of its society for all the ills, is slowly but surely eroding the system of what has worked well, so far.
spot on! both Viddax and Lepp!
yes , humanity hasn't yet found don't have a silver bullet yet. And there in lies the folly, the belief-one remedy for all ills, along with one size fits all approach resulting in so much misery to so many humans across the globe!
People across the globe are different not saying not equal, but different. What's acceptable to some is extremely offending to others and that has great lot to do with the prevalent culture that's evolved with time. And to assume, mine is the only correct approach is absolutely naive.
4+5 = 9
so does 6+3 and 7+2 and so on...different approaches for same result.
Whatever -isms you're talking about, let's not forget, the aim, supposedly is to ensure we humans, as a society live in safety, security,freedom and ensure prosperity for all( both at an individual level and as a society/nation/block etc) . All of the -isms say they aim to get it.
The biggest lie perpetuated in the west is Socialism is Communism.
You fail when you believe you're the only right one and everyone else is wrong. That is simply Bullying. And that is what the so called democratic west is doing in the places that somehow not heeding its diktat.
Well, all -isms have killed millions, not just communism, the Nazis were neither a socialist bunch nor were they communists. The so called enlightened defenders of freedoms the back then imperial super powers of Britain and their Mainland allies, whilst fighting the nazis, in the name securing freedom in Europe, were crushing the so called terrorist rebels in Southern Asia and Africa whose crime was to stand up and ask/fight for freedom for themselves. So much for the holy cow that is democracy. Long story short, nothing is perfect, yes, the west with its relatively tamed capitalism for the best part of about half a century or more has succeeded in affording many of the objective the human society endeavours i.e relative individual freedoms, opportunity and yes prosperity.
And now what's happening? anything taken in extreme quantities becomes toxic, including clean pure water, the growth at all costs and ever increasing power of the corporations and by extension capitalism gone wild, is making the governments but a pawn in its game is eroding the ideals the western democracy set out to achieve.
One prime example- the pharma sector, should it only be a profit driven industry? of course yes, but to what level, Ok, i get it , that without profit, what's the incentive for a company to find new drugs and fund the research and the drug company is entitled to reap the reward for it's effort and get a fair return on its investments. In third world countries, those same companies charge hundreds of times less(not just percentages,but times) for the same drug they charge in the Western world. And the cost recovery and fair return on investment argument goes out the window,nothing to do with the cost, what comes to play is capitalistic principles. Are these principles God sent? and for whose benefit are they supposed to stand for?
And then, due to the falling ideals of the western democracy,resulting from the untamed/extreme adherence to capitalism, people, especially the middle class are getting squeezed out and resulting in human misery. And as they say every crisis is an opportunity, we have people professing remedies whilst profiting and enriching themselves off people's misery and primal fears.
Human migration is one of the hottest topic these days. The so called ills it brings, the clashes of cultures etc, the us vs them mentality and stoking of irrational fears is big driver in the manipulation of the masses. The so called nativists these days( whilst they do not hide their love for the Nazis) pelt so much misinformation and half truths whilst claiming to be speaking rational truth. Any information to the contrary is dismissed as conspiracy theory or as Donald Trump likes to say,fake news. He who speaks the loudest not necessarily is speaking the truth.
So all in all, capitalism but within limits alongside socialism seems to work well, relatively speaking. Australia, much more egalitarian society compared the US. Good case in point. But again, the capitalism there too is crossing its limits and at the same time blaming it on the socialist aspect of its society for all the ills, is slowly but surely eroding the system of what has worked well, so far.
cold_fusion all cultures are in no way equal. Western culture is objectively better than the Islamic theocratic culture of the middle-east, for instance.
Your analysis of the Pharma industry in the United States is not exactly accurate, for you blame the excessive prices on the profit motive (which is not exclusive to Capitalism). The only reason Pharma companies are able to charge these excessively high prices is due to the equally excessive government intervention into healthcare. For example, Obamacare intervened and made it so that pre-existing medical conditions would not effect insurance prices, thus greatly increasing the price of insurance (as it incentives people to not purchase insurance until the moment they need it), which means that because everything is covered on a rigged insurance market, Pharma companies are able to exploit it and charge higher. You cannot ascribe the blame to a non-existent free market here.
Finally, cold_fusion, Capitalism and Socialism are antithetical, there is no way they can work in harmony as you say. What you are perceiving to be a 'functioning' symbiosis of Socialism and Capitalism is merely a facade propped up by trillions of dollars of debt, inflation and taxation. All that Capitalism means, is a respect for property rights, non-coercive trade, etc. Socialism is the opposite: it is State controlled trade (coercive) and a disregard for property rights.
Your analysis of the Pharma industry in the United States is not exactly accurate, for you blame the excessive prices on the profit motive (which is not exclusive to Capitalism). The only reason Pharma companies are able to charge these excessively high prices is due to the equally excessive government intervention into healthcare. For example, Obamacare intervened and made it so that pre-existing medical conditions would not effect insurance prices, thus greatly increasing the price of insurance (as it incentives people to not purchase insurance until the moment they need it), which means that because everything is covered on a rigged insurance market, Pharma companies are able to exploit it and charge higher. You cannot ascribe the blame to a non-existent free market here.
Finally, cold_fusion, Capitalism and Socialism are antithetical, there is no way they can work in harmony as you say. What you are perceiving to be a 'functioning' symbiosis of Socialism and Capitalism is merely a facade propped up by trillions of dollars of debt, inflation and taxation. All that Capitalism means, is a respect for property rights, non-coercive trade, etc. Socialism is the opposite: it is State controlled trade (coercive) and a disregard for property rights.
JD4 said:Wealth disparity is grown by the Government. The welfare State creates a permanently dependant underclass, whilst minimum wage laws keep the unskilled out of work and thus out of opportunities, leading more into welfare underclass. At the same time, the Government monopoly on money through central banking, allows constant inflation (quantitative easing), slowly draining the value of people's labour. All the while, this nanny State is propped up on the unsustainable premise of debt, turning the each generation of tax payers into retroactive slaves (birth certification being a legal document of collateral).
On the other end of the spectrum, Government intervention creates a platform to route the foundations of mega-monopolies into protected "too big to fail" corporations, where the CEO's are legally removed from any accountability. The State essentially becomes a vessel of private interests for the highest bidder.
You've nailed the definition. Capitalism as an idea is a good one. The free market is what societies should strive towards. The problem is when the governments use our taxpaying money to bail out corporations because they're "too big to fail" as you've mentioned. That's socialism. You can't have both.
On the other end of the spectrum, Government intervention creates a platform to route the foundations of mega-monopolies into protected "too big to fail" corporations, where the CEO's are legally removed from any accountability. The State essentially becomes a vessel of private interests for the highest bidder.
You've nailed the definition. Capitalism as an idea is a good one. The free market is what societies should strive towards. The problem is when the governments use our taxpaying money to bail out corporations because they're "too big to fail" as you've mentioned. That's socialism. You can't have both.
I live in Australia...a very capitalistic nation. As an Australian I am a slave owner of course. I know that the lithium that runs my mobile phone probably comes from The Congo and was mined by young boys as young as ten who get hardly a wage and live in poverty...chances are that the oil in my car came from some third world country like Nigeria where the landscape is ruined and slaves produce it...that's capitalism...and the story goes on.
Purple said:
Sadly, the system often doesn't work like that. Who your parents are and your childhood background have a massive effect on your chances of success in life.
True. The idea that 'meritocracy' is inbuilt into Capitalism is a lie perpetuated by those at the top to justify their accumulated wealth.
Sadly, the system often doesn't work like that. Who your parents are and your childhood background have a massive effect on your chances of success in life.
True. The idea that 'meritocracy' is inbuilt into Capitalism is a lie perpetuated by those at the top to justify their accumulated wealth.
badmalthus said:I live in Australia...a very capitalistic nation. As an Australian I am a slave owner of course. I know that the lithium that runs my mobile phone probably comes from The Congo and was mined by young boys as young as ten who get hardly a wage and live in poverty...chances are that the oil in my car came from some third world country like Nigeria where the landscape is ruined and slaves produce it...that's capitalism...and the story goes on.
Lithium mining now being pressed for in my region of Portugal. Promises of jobs for locals - hmmmm. Like you say, real jobs, or slave-jobs?
Lithium mining now being pressed for in my region of Portugal. Promises of jobs for locals - hmmmm. Like you say, real jobs, or slave-jobs?
Lithium Corp of America was once headquartered in a small town in North Carolina about 30 years ago. The plant still operates but not at the capacity it once did. It paid US workers top dollar back in the day ( don't know about now ). Shame all countries can't.
