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how do you seperate the art from the artist?

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todski28
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Moralistic standpoints aside, never is there any assertion, that what's good for one, is same for the other. The question here is for each individual, not to reach a judgement or impose one. And it is perfectly fine if one can satisfy themselves for and of the difference between the art and the artist. 

True this.

I have a massive bias in this regard so my standpoints can oft times be agressive. Or assertive in a manner that implies Im trying to cram my opinion down others throats.

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cold_fusion
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views, strong, show in some ways  the depth of conviction. Nothing wrong with that.

Bias, that undeterred faithful pet dog who won't go away you kick or scream at it!


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Ahavati
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cold_fusion said:
[. . .]
Would you, if it was proven beyond doubt and on a scale not less than that of Weinstein's, hold MJ in same regard? and without a blink keep his Art?


None of us are above any human behaviour. The moment we think we are,  we'll be shown we're not. That moment comes with our judgement of others.

Negative actions such as pedophilia are from  fear-based vibration;  therefore, my answer is yes; because when in a vibration of fear, people are not their actions; they're fear's. Only from a pure vibration of Love are people truly a relection of themselves.

Disclaimer: I am not condoning any negative behaviour from a fear-based vibration. I am merely recognizing what it is and looking beyond the earth-suit action.


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cold_fusion
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Ahavati said:

None of us are above any human behaviour. The moment we think we are,  we'll be shown we're not. That moment comes with our judgement of others.

Negative actions such as pedophilia are from  fear-based vibration;  therefore, my answer is yes; because when in a vibration of fear, people are not their actions; they're fear's. Only from a pure vibration of Love are people truly a relection of themselves.

Disclaimer: I am not condoning any negative behaviour from a fear-based vibration. I am merely recognizing what it is and looking beyond the earth-suit action.


Yes, none of us are. And yes, will be shown we aren't.

admire the clarity in dissecting the one from the other!

some as i said to a friend recently, like mothers are human, yet their sacrifices, beyond human. But that is another matter, though it reflects the beauty of love residing in her.


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Ahavati
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cold_fusion said:
Yes, none of us are. And yes, will be shown we aren't.

admire the clarity in dissecting the one from the other!

some as i said to a friend recently, like mothers are human, yet their sacrifices, beyond human. But that is another matter, though it reflects the beauty of love residing in her.



Yes. Love doesn't require, but often sacrifices as a demonstration of its humbling power upon the human spirit.

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Poetryman
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cold_fusion said:Just a few questions that've been dogging this cold brain since the story first broke in the New York Times. Though Weinstein was no artist, many of the so called great artists have now been brought down(in my personal view rightly so)since his story began, by the allegations of gross misconduct and abuse.

I'm talking about the so called 'flawed geniuses', those who have made some serious contribution to the world of art and for decades (won't name names as many matters are sub-judice and some will be sooner)  for example in Music, operah, theatre and other fields of art.

Questions dogging me are:

- should we only concentrate on the art and forgive or forget about the artist despite their 'flaws' or as i personally would prefer calling their heinous actions-crimes?

-how  should history remember them?

-would you still keep their art inside your bedroom? or high on your showcase?



First, I haven't read other's responses so I will apologize ahead of time if I echo what's already been said.

It is not just artists or geniuses who have this problem, but you hear about it because they are famous. You don't hear about it when the average guy does it because it doesn't sell newspapers, or get people to tune in on tabloid news. We become aware when we care. Who cares if John Smith harassed Jane Doe? So it goes unreported or ignored when it is reported. It's a problem all through society, down through history.

Donald Trump, Bill Clinton, Bill Cosby are symptoms of society that have plagued men forever. Add to it some power, either through politics, fame or position of authority at work or elsewhere and it sticks out in he crowd. And it is an enormous crowd now because of social media. Used to be only on the news, but now everybody is in everybody's business as it happens.

We are all connected now and are now so much more aware of what's happening around us.

I'm having trouble listening to Neil Young's music because he cheated on his wife. Same thing with Howard Stern. He hasn't seemed as funny since he cheated. I had book by Bill Cosby I threw away, and I respect books...

I don't want to separate an artist from their work. I either accept them as a whole or leave hem behind. It's a mixed bag in the middle. John Lennon is a good example. He cheated on his wives, virtually abandoned his son Julian and did some really stupid things along the way. But I still love his music and I wept when he was killed. It's very hard to reconcile my mixed emotions for him.

My poetry is a part of me, so I know that they are the same. We are all flawed individuals in need of forgiveness. The question then, at least for me is, does my love outweigh my anger enough to forgive? Why can I listen to John Lennon's music and be happy while Neil Young's brings me pain?

JJ

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todski28
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cold_fusion said:
Bias, that undeterred faithful pet dog who won't go away you kick or scream at it!



Funny thing is we can't allways dismiss bias as if its a mangy dog we fed, that now follows faithfully at our heels, all the while reeking of the death it rolled in and pisses on every rug it can. Especially if they're a certain type of fabric or belong to a certain kind of person.

Bias as Im looking at it in the context of this arguement, is from the perspective of myself as a child. I came from one of those places, violence, overt aggression, outright misogynistic views towards women, seen my mothers jaw shattered, had my own ribs broken, seen my brother locked in a cage with a large rohdesian rooster because he was scared of it. Physical, psychological and emotional abuse etc, etc ad nauseam.....

Viewing from a lense covered in the blood of our human condition, I had to divorce the sins of my fathers deeds from myself before I could be anything more than a vile representation of what and who he is as a man.

If you can not seperate art from artist, from my perspective you are using a moral filter for virtue signalling, you are looking through a lens that says this man was flawed ergo anything he manifests into this world is also flawed, not only flawed but is only worth the amount of revulsion and contempt I can hurl its way. Ive lived through that lens, as a person not a piece af art. So you learn to seperate a persons competence from their tryanny, because we can all be that monster, the right circumstances and timing who knows.....often the highest moral virtues or attempts at it in all human history have lead to the most catastrophic outcomes to the entirety of humanity.

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cold_fusion
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Yes, you're right, especially for the way and the reason you've mentioned.
My 'dismissal' for it being a mangy dog, was in  general terms.Bias, ingrained in us due the life we grew up in and around,  especially the sub-conscious bias, I have found pretty hard to get rid of, not saying impossible. When we do overcome the circumstances that shaped us, truly we have the right to call ourselves reasoned and rational human beings. Being human and rational, pretty darn difficult. Not impossible, but difficult nonetheless!

And my experience from my own life, with outright violence and it being the only answer to wrong and evil, misogyny, homphobia, communalism, ethnicism and has been pretty much from up-close. Getting into a life or death scuffle  with the  ruling mafia of the town in your locale is not a soothing  experience. Nor is being a bully slayer or in the process becoming one oneself  is either.

one proverb written on the front wall of my school in ingrained in my mind since the kindy age-

Education gives you the ability to listen to almost anything without losing your temper or your self confidence.

as my years in education both academically and of life after teenage progressed this became clearer and clearer. Never gave a toss that my way or highway approach is  plain simple bullying. Tolerance, i found, though hard, is the key to one's character. Having strong opinions/views is  one thing, shoving it down the other's throat is another, bullying. Even, the expresssion of those strong views in a strong  manner has the danger of being misconstrued as a bully. I  found it the hard way. Life's much  more easier with tolerance.

As for reaching conclusions regarding the difficulty of sepearting art from the artist, each individual, due to their own personality, shaped  by their upbringing(be it religious zealotry/bigotry or by looking everything through the lens of morality) has the right to their own conclusion. Judging that itself as right or wrong is itself not advisable as itinfringes on individual right to choice and  freedoms.

And that brings us to the reason for the very existence of this thread- which:

is not to judge any opinion as right or wrong

is exploring the reasons with peers through their own rich experiences and their opinions as to why.

and i have recieved robust help in this regard from all the peers that have answered my request!! I cannot thank each of you enough!!

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Gover
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The art is a piece of the artist separated from the soul

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Slackercruster
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Everyone has problems. No one is perfect. In many cases it is a package deal. You like the art,  you take the person. What makes up the art required the person to be what they are.

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anna_grin
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oh god what a mess.  i think the only thing to do... is accept that you yourself are hideous first for viewing this as your own moral quandry second for whatever choice you make because either way you damn humanity and reject compassion

and if you refuse to make a choice morally speaking you are flaccid and pathetic and mumbling. its a terrible situation to be in holy fuck what a mess

finding out someone is a horrific cunt is going to alter my view of their work i cant watch some films without feeling a little sick i cant look at some paintings without wanting to put a foot through them that doesn't mean they are not *art* or *good* in a competency sense or that they did no good in a moral sense by existing and inspiring others etc they have a duality which you must not romanticise

tl;dr everything is terrible and some people are especially terrible artist or not

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Umm
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I'm currently of the opinion that the better the art, the easier it is to separate from the artist. Great art will be great regardless of who makes it.

...To look at it from a slightly different perspective, I've noticed that the art world actually tends to readily reject art which is primarily considered worthwhile due to fame of its maker (a great example of this is James Franco). People who are already famous and want to be artists seem to have to work harder to gain serious recognition for their work. (i.e., they have to prove their art is worthy of recognition beyond that which they receive from already having a large following, and in a sense, have to separate who they are from their art)

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cold_fusion
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one line deduction...for now

just because the art is great does not mean the artist is great [person] too.







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