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how do you seperate the art from the artist?

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cold_fusion
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Just a few questions that've been dogging this cold brain since the story first broke in the New York Times. Though Weinstein was no artist, many of the so called great artists have now been brought down(in my personal view rightly so)since his story began, by the allegations of gross misconduct and abuse.

I'm talking about the so called 'flawed geniuses', those who have made some serious contribution to the world of art and for decades (won't name names as many matters are sub-judice and some will be sooner)  for example in Music, operah, theatre and other fields of art.

Questions dogging me are:

- should we only concentrate on the art and forgive or forget about the artist despite their 'flaws' or as i personally would prefer calling their heinous actions-crimes?

-how  should history remember them?

-would you still keep their art inside your bedroom? or high on your showcase?


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Ahavati
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I believe Art becomes its own entity irrespective of the artist once created, much like children from their parents. Do we blame the child? Then how can we art?

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ParadoxZero
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Art is art; a product of the mind of an artist, yet open to interpretation. Do we see or hear the artwork differently now that the crimes of the artist are on the table? I believe that the answers you seek are of personal matter, just as the artist intends that you seek a personal meaning to their work. To remember an artist is far different than remembering the art. Do we forget that history is an evil past when we look toward a bright future? How do we see beyond the frame if we focus on the glass? We cannot blame material for the crimes of the offender. We may blame the offender for the subject of material. You may have an opinion, but judgement lies elsewhere.

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todski28
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cold_fusion said:Just a few questions that've been dogging this cold brain since the story first broke in the New York Times. Though Weinstein was no artist, many of the so called great artists have now been brought down(in my personal view rightly so)since his story began, by the allegations of gross misconduct and abuse.

I'm talking about the so called 'flawed geniuses', those who have made some serious contribution to the world of art and for decades (won't name names as many matters are sub-judice and some will be sooner)  for example in Music, operah, theatre and other fields of art.

Questions dogging me are:

- should we only concentrate on the art and forgive or forget about the artist despite their 'flaws' or as i personally would prefer calling their heinous actions-crimes?

-how  should history remember them?

-would you still keep their art inside your bedroom? or high on your showcase?



The problem is, the crimes were not called out from the start, every little acceptance allows the perpetrator to greow and emboldens them further,

Male agressive sexuality is something that needs to be adressed but the thing is its maybe one in 50-100 men (guesswork here not actual statistic) and they have to fuck it up for the rest of us. Ome man over a lifetime of small to large indescressions could assault 100's of women. That being said hyper agressive sexuality creates driving forces to success, power, money, and artistic output,  fame draws out women like a honeypot, the two link hand in hand.

Art is art, if it hits an emotion, if it makes you feel somethig, quite often the nature of the artist can become a smalll whispering fable adding to the after affect allure.

Despite the creators deeds should we deny emotnal connectivity to the rest of the world when that one piece of art can uplift or enspire trhousands?

Ahavati put it best


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Viddax
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To 'Forgive And Forget' is lofty goal indeed, yet the art would have to be astronomical quality, or have a cult following, to be remembered on their own. Not just sweeping the problems and flaws under the carpet, but obliterating them because the walls are so fantastic at holding your attention.

History should remember them for their deeds and their darkness; to better build a future where power is less abused or used to cause abuse. For all the talk of democracy, there still seems to be people who are above reproach, and that if a problem is found it cannot be overcome; that people are still flawed humans incapable of change for the better. Quite possibly with extra insight into an artist's dirty laundry it adds an extra layer to the interpretation and explanation of the art. I am sure in some psychology or art-based class the fallen will be used as examples to explain some idea.

Not sure I know or own any media attached to the discredited. Though after the scandals for Rolf Harris and Bill Cosby, the few songs of theirs I had in my Spotify playlist (other music streaming services are available) I removed as their entertaining aspect had now been tarnished by association. I no longer received the same level of enjoyment and have the association in the back of my mind. It may well sound shallow, but the artist and art were connected still.

'Flawed Geniuses', ugh, such a pretentious label and term. Everyone is flawed to some degree or another, and anyone and everyone can be a genius given the right occasion and circumstances. It is just that time and chance makes them appear as something more than the mundane through a change that can be a turn of fate and meteoric rise or a slow glacial build up. Their position and stance of power also corrupts and exaggerates any flaws they already had: it is just that because they have become larger than life that their flaws become larger too in proportion.

The lesson is that regardless of our art, we are still not as good as we could be.

poet Anonymous

you don't separate them...you are pure energy and therefore a conduit with a gift for words to be expressed through you that you pull from somewhere else, regardless of how your ego deceives you into thinking otherwise..writers are born, not made...

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todski28
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Viddax said:To 'Forgive And Forget' is lofty goal indeed, yet the art would have to be astronomical quality, or have a cult following, to be remembered on their own. Not just sweeping the problems and flaws under the carpet, but obliterating them because the walls are so fantastic at holding your attention.

History should remember them for their deeds and their darkness; to better build a future where power is less abused or used to cause abuse. For all the talk of democracy, there still seems to be people who are above reproach, and that if a problem is found it cannot be overcome; that people are still flawed humans incapable of change for the better. Quite possibly with extra insight into an artist's dirty laundry it adds an extra layer to the interpretation and explanation of the art. I am sure in some psychology or art-based class the fallen will be used as examples to explain some idea.

Not sure I know or own any media attached to the discredited. Though after the scandals for Rolf Harris and Bill Cosby, the few songs of theirs I had in my Spotify playlist (other music streaming services are available) I removed as their entertaining aspect had now been tarnished by association. I no longer received the same level of enjoyment and have the association in the back of my mind. It may well sound shallow, but the artist and art were connected still.

'Flawed Geniuses', ugh, such a pretentious label and term. Everyone is flawed to some degree or another, and anyone and everyone can be a genius given the right occasion and circumstances. It is just that time and chance makes them appear as something more than the mundane through a change that can be a turn of fate and meteoric rise or a slow glacial build up. Their position and stance of power also corrupts and exaggerates any flaws they already had: it is just that because they have become larger than life that their flaws become larger too in proportion.

The lesson is that regardless of our art, we are still not as good as we could be.


Love your final closing, i didnt think about cosby nor rolf, neither of them i like or appreciate,

i think however the medium is different to written and painted art, there again ive bever background studied any of the artists i appreciate, and how many people do

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cold_fusion
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Ahavati said:I believe Art becomes its own entity irrespective of the artist once created, much like children from their parents. Do we blame the child? Then how can we art?

Herbert von Karajan- one who wilfully joined the Nazi party, it is said to further his career. One of the best, some say the one of the greatest conductors of the 20th century. The sheer volume of his work is breathtaking. His art, no doubt something remarkable. Will it have an effect  on your admiration for his work knowing what he had to do(join the perpetrators of the Holocaust) to further his career. Though apparently forgiven by the society after the war, would you house his collection?

welcome your prompt response dear wise artist. apologies for the  delay  in coming back to this thread.

i get it, the art like a child, artist, the parent. for me it will perhaps take a monumental effort to overcome the association, especially when deciding to acquire one of their pieces of art, be it a music recording or one of their poetry books or even painting.

Marquis de Sade, history says, was a paedophile. A serial abuser of his servants. A criminal without a doubt in today's world and wasso deemed even back then. His life behind bars is well  documented. I wouldn't say anything about his relationships though as it was his life, his business.
would you, if he was a contemporary artist, still buy his art?his literature?

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cold_fusion
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ParadoxZero said:Art is art; a product of the mind of an artist, yet open to interpretation. Do we see or hear the artwork differently now that the crimes of the artist are on the table? I believe that the answers you seek are of personal matter, just as the artist intends that you seek a personal meaning to their work. To remember an artist is far different than remembering the art. Do we forget that history is an evil past when we look toward a bright future? How do we see beyond the frame if we focus on the glass? We cannot blame material for the crimes of the offender. We may blame the offender for the subject of material. You may have an opinion, but judgement lies elsewhere.

welcome dear peer.

well, isn't it clear, the reason for this whole thread is me, seeking answers to the question dogging my mind. Isn't it obvious the answers are of personal nature? when did i cast any  judgement? an opinion of peers is sought here, simple, not casting judgement.

Personal meaning to an artist's work you say, well, i believe all pieces of art mean different and differently to each person. The questions are there, at the beginning of the thread.

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cold_fusion
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todski28 said:

The problem is, the crimes were not called out from the start, every little acceptance allows the perpetrator to greow and emboldens them further.

Male aggressive sexuality is something that needs to be addressed but the thing is its maybe one in 50-100 men (guesswork here not actual statistic) and they have to fuck it up for the rest of us. One man over a lifetime of small to large indiscretions could assault 100's of women. That being said hyper aggressive sexuality creates driving forces to success, power, money, and artistic output,  fame draws out women like a honeypot, the two link hand in hand.

Art is art, if it hits an emotion, if it makes you feel somethig, quite often the nature of the artist can become a smalll whispering fable adding to the after affect allure.

Despite the creators deeds should we deny emotnal connectivity to the rest of the world when that one piece of art can uplift or enspire trhousands?

Ahavati put it best


You hit the nail on  the head dear friend. I welcome your views to this thread same as the peers above.

yes, the crimes were not called out from the start and yes every little acceptance or i'd say keeping silent emboldens them further, jimmy savile, rolf harris, wayne carey(though not an artist but so called star/celebrity)as well as  Robert Hughes from Hey Dad! come to mind.

Aggression(not necessarily physical violence) in character of a human being indeed is perhaps one of the qualities that set them apart hence their success in their endeavors in life, i guess.  Yes, it takes a small  few crims to spoil it for everyone.  But we can't blame the victims for being attracted to not only the talent but also the other things associated with the 'srtist/star/celebrity'. Problem perhaps lies with the way and where they find themselves, in a weak position. Also the minders of the so called celebrity i have found to be the bigger perpetrators themselves, for it is them who allowed the monster to  flourish and grow.

Yes, art, is indeed art and theoretically if viewed in isolation it is best appreciated. But again, some we artists we grow fond of, we kind of  hold special place, of regard and perhaps some emotional (albeit one way) connection to, when this kind of veil is removed from their persona, i find it is hard to separate the two.

And you've asked a very interesting question there Todski, i dwelled long and hard on it, and unfortunately it's put me in bind. I  believe it boils down to rights of one/some vs the rights of many.



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cold_fusion
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Viddax said:To 'Forgive And Forget' is lofty goal indeed, yet the art would have to be astronomical quality, or have a cult following, to be remembered on their own. Not just sweeping the problems and flaws under the carpet, but obliterating them because the walls are so fantastic at holding your attention.

History should remember them for their deeds and their darkness; to better build a future where power is less abused or used to cause abuse. For all the talk of democracy, there still seems to be people who are above reproach, and that if a problem is found it cannot be overcome; that people are still flawed humans incapable of change for the better. Quite possibly with extra insight into an artist's dirty laundry it adds an extra layer to the interpretation and explanation of the art. I am sure in some psychology or art-based class the fallen will be used as examples to explain some idea.

Not sure I know or own any media attached to the discredited. Though after the scandals for Rolf Harris and Bill Cosby, the few songs of theirs I had in my Spotify playlist (other music streaming services are available) I removed as their entertaining aspect had now been tarnished by association. I no longer received the same level of enjoyment and have the association in the back of my mind. It may well sound shallow, but the artist and art were connected still.

'Flawed Geniuses', ugh, such a pretentious label and term. Everyone is flawed to some degree or another, and anyone and everyone can be a genius given the right occasion and circumstances. It is just that time and chance makes them appear as something more than the mundane through a change that can be a turn of fate and meteoric rise or a slow glacial build up. Their position and stance of power also corrupts and exaggerates any flaws they already had: it is just that because they have become larger than life that their flaws become larger too in proportion.

The lesson is that regardless of our art, we are still not as good as we could be.


This response dear Friend made me smile. Agree with you. Indeed we are not 'there' yet.

Thanks for the clarity, as for me it did provide me with the answers that resonated deep in my mind.

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Ahavati
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cold_fusion said:

Herbert von Karajan- one who wilfully joined the Nazi party, it is said to further his career. One of the best, some say the one of the greatest conductors of the 20th century. The sheer volume of his work is breathtaking. His art, no doubt something remarkable. Will it have an effect  on your admiration for his work knowing what he had to do(join the perpetrators of the Holocaust) to further his career. Though apparently forgiven by the society after the war, would you house his collection?

welcome your prompt response dear wise artist. apologies for the  delay  in coming back to this thread.

i get it, the art like a child, artist, the parent. for me it will perhaps take a monumental effort to overcome the association, especially when deciding to acquire one of their pieces of art, be it a music recording or one of their poetry books or even painting.

Marquis de Sade, history says, was a paedophile. A serial abuser of his servants. A criminal without a doubt in today's world and wasso deemed even back then. His life behind bars is well  documented. I wouldn't say anything about his relationships though as it was his life, his business.
would you, if he was a contemporary artist, still buy his art?his literature?


If a child was born of Hitler himself and a whore, would you still feed it if s/he were destitute and hungry?

Art is beyond a three-dimensional existence, though it remains, much as we in our earth suits, subject to associative judgement.  Michael Jackson was also accused of pedophelia. I would have every record of his if possible.

Ironically, Earth Song is my favorite, clearly from the vortex; a higher vibration where he even mentions Abraham ( no; not the biblical one ).

https://youtu.be/buCdGwH2Efc



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cold_fusion
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Ahavati said:

If a child was born of Hitler himself and a whore, would you still feed it if s/he were destitute and hungry?

Art is beyond a three-dimensional existence, though it remains, much as we in our earth suits, subject to associative judgement.  Michael Jackson was also accused of pedophelia. I would have every record of his if possible.

Ironically, Earth Song is my favorite, clearly from the vortex; a higher vibration where he even mentions Abraham ( no; not the biblical one ).

https://youtu.be/buCdGwH2Efc



yes. and art doesn't need none's help to survive unlike the destitute humans you've mentioned above.

yes, art is beyond the dimensions we humans can comprehend so far.

Subject to associative judgement- you're right there.

The difference  between  MJ and others is cases proven beyond doubt, not just mere accusations. And i pay no heed to conspiracy theories, hence the accusations against MJ, to me at least, so far, are just that.  
Good you raised MJ's example, and that particular song, yes, still my favorite, would still buy it for two reasons, the piece appeals to my soul and for the same reason- the message itself, including how  he delivered it, made a special place in a then child's heart. Hence the attachment.
Would you, if it was proven beyond doubt and on a scale not less than that of Weinstein's, hold MJ in same regard? and without a blink keep his Art?

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todski28
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Would you, if it was proven beyond doubt and on a scale not less than that of Weinstein's, hold MJ in same regard? and without a blink keep his Art?

If it appealed to me as an individual, if it resonated yes, applying our own moral outrage filter to an individual is one thing, however you can not ascribe it to everything he touched brought played with or generated. Its an over-reaching moralistric standpoint that is more detrimental than helpful.

Communism in soviet russia, under chairman mao, in venuzuela, ans every where else it has been tried has killed hundreds of millions of people, and yet people are still peddling marxist principals as if theyre the saviour of the human race.....

To me that ideological import is far more dangerous than appreciating art.....

There are cabeats to this though.....

If the peraon was convicted and any money spent was still being procured for the part convicted I would still appreciate the art bujt would never shell out a dollar to purchase it.


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cold_fusion
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todski28 said:Would you, if it was proven beyond doubt and on a scale not less than that of Weinstein's, hold MJ in same regard? and without a blink keep his Art?

If it appealed to me as an individual, if it resonated yes, applying our own moral outrage filter to an individual is one thing, however you can not ascribe it to everything he touched brought played with or generated. Its an over-reaching moralistric standpoint that is more detrimental than helpful.

Communism in soviet russia, under chairman mao, in venuzuela, ans every where else it has been tried has killed hundreds of millions of people, and yet people are still peddling marxist principals as if theyre the saviour of the human race.....

To me that ideological import is far more dangerous than appreciating art.....

There are cabeats to this though.....

If the peraon was convicted and any money spent was still being procured for the part convicted I would still appreciate the art bujt would never shell out a dollar to purchase it.


Moralistic standpoints aside, never is there any assertion, that what's good for one, is same for the other. The question here is for each individual, not to reach a judgement or impose one. And it is perfectly fine if one can satisfy themselves for and of the difference between the art and the artist.


Yes, agreed importing ideologies is far more dangerous than appreciating art. Yes, communism and its various offshoots be it the Khmer rouge or the so called democratic western imposed dictatorships in the third world pose far more danger than appreciation of art.

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