Poetry competition CLOSED 1st November 2020 10:14pm
WINNER
PoetsRevenge
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RUNNERS-UP: summultima and Eerie

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Nothing But Color

Ahavati
Tyrant of Words
United States 116awards
Joined 11th Apr 2015
Forum Posts: 14273

nomoth said:Very big congrats to Poetsrevenge for the win. Again such a thoughtful utterly outstanding piece of writing. And a very big bravo to Eerie who just killed it with your piece. It is so inspiring to read your work.

Thank you so so much Ahavati for the critique, apart from one question I absolutely can see the major  improvements you suggest. I really wanted to write s something in a fresher style for me and with your critique  I will attempt this again with such a better understanding. Truly a class's lesson worth learning. so thank you again.

The question is this....as I was writing in the past tense, is not the past tense of to lie down,  to 'lay' down? I saw this at grammerly.com ...https://www.grammarly.com/blog/lay-lie/

"There’s still one more thing you need to know. When you are talking about reclining, the past tense of lie is lay! Here’s an example.
Yesterday, he lay down to sleep at ten o’clock. Tonight, he won’t lie down until midnight."

I do get this confused often and you have noticed my use of lie/lay in one of my other poems. Pls correct me if I am wrong or confused with this. Is this an English/US thing maybe?

Again well done to all the entries just to attempt these challenges is so worthwhile.


Am I the only person in American that feels like it's midnight at 7:30 PM?  Thank you for your patience, nomoth. Good times here in America; good times.

Lie and lay / lay and lie can seem like a rabbit hole at times. Looking back on your verse and the applicable lines/tenses:

Firstly, let's look at the context in which you use the word:

I awoke with a start,
a dozen or so people were peering down
at me in a very curious way.
The last thing that I recalled;  
I was talking into my dictaphone,  
repeating a conversation I had with a shopkeeper.

Slowly as I lay there looking up
at everyone's expressions on their faces,
it grew on me that something very serious had just occurred.
In the background I heard distant noises
of panic and confusion.


You say you are writing in the past tense; however, this does not read as though it's past tense. To me, it reads present tense, with you waking up after some sort of tragic event ( as described by your use of 'panic' and 'confusion' ).  Thus, I interpreted this as what was happening currently, not in the past tense. However, regardless of interpretation, let's look at some rules here:

Secondly, as explained to Joe-D, Lay/s is a transitive verb, meaning it always needs an object:  i.e. - I am going to lay [ this book < - object ] here for later; or, the hen lays [ many eggs < - object ]. More simply put, lay/s means 'to place something down flat,' while lie/s means 'to be in a flat position on a surface.' The latter emphasized applies to the line in your poem, as you in a flat position on the surface of what I believe was a road, perhaps a building floor.

The grammarly link that you provided reiterates those rules ( we're talking present tense ):

You lie down, but you lay something down. Lie does not require a direct object. Lay requires a direct object. The same rule applies to laying and lying (not lieing—beware of spelling).

The particular portion of grammarly's statement you have quoted is:

"There’s still one more thing you need to know. When you are talking about reclining, the past tense of lie is lay! Here’s an example.

Yesterday, he lay down to sleep at ten o’clock. Tonight, he won’t lie down until midnight."


Note that the adverb yesterday defines the line as past tense, where your line has no definition of past tense. On the contrary, "As I slowly lay there. . ." reads as present tense.  The only mention of past tense is in your previous stanza in reference to 'the last thing I remember. . . ' before returning to the present state of waking.

Am I missing something in reference to tense here that I have overlooked? Perhaps it is an American/British difference in perception.

poet Anonymous

Ahavati said:

Am I the only person in American that feels like it's midnight at 7:30 PM?  Thank you for your patience, nomoth. Good times here in America; good times.

Lie and lay / lay and lie can seem like a rabbit hole at times. Looking back on your verse and the applicable lines/tenses:

Firstly, let's look at the context in which you use the word:

I awoke with a start,
a dozen or so people were peering down
at me in a very curious way.
The last thing that I recalled;  
I was talking into my dictaphone,  
repeating a conversation I had with a shopkeeper.

Slowly as I lay there looking up
at everyone's expressions on their faces,
it grew on me that something very serious had just occurred.
In the background I heard distant noises
of panic and confusion.


You say you are writing in the past tense; however, this does not read as though it's past tense. To me, it reads present tense, with you waking up after some sort of tragic event ( as described by your use of 'panic' and 'confusion' ).  Thus, I interpreted this as what was happening currently, not in the past tense. However, regardless of interpretation, let's look at some rules here:

Secondly, as explained to Joe-D, Lay/s is a transitive verb, meaning it always needs an object:  i.e. - I am going to lay [ this book < - object ] here for later; or, the hen lays [ many eggs < - object ]. More simply put, lay/s means 'to place something down flat,' while lie/s means 'to be in a flat position on a surface.' The latter emphasized applies to the line in your poem, as you in a flat position on the surface of what I believe was a road, perhaps a building floor.

The grammarly link that you provided reiterates those rules ( we're talking present tense ):

You lie down, but you lay something down. Lie does not require a direct object. Lay requires a direct object. The same rule applies to laying and lying (not lieing—beware of spelling).

The particular portion of grammarly's statement you have quoted is:

"There’s still one more thing you need to know. When you are talking about reclining, the past tense of lie is lay! Here’s an example.

Yesterday, he lay down to sleep at ten o’clock. Tonight, he won’t lie down until midnight."


Note that the adverb yesterday defines the line as past tense, where your line has no definition of past tense. On the contrary, "As I slowly lay there. . ." reads as present tense.  The only mention of past tense is in your previous stanza in reference to 'the last thing I remember. . . ' before returning to the present state of waking.

Am I missing something in reference to tense here that I have overlooked? Perhaps it is an American/British difference in perception.


Thank you so much for the response and again for the time to explain thoughtfully and thoroughly  this  thing.

And yes clearly the only thing missing is the part of my brain that should know what tense my poem is in....so you were correct the first time, but it does feel counter-intuitive to use that 'lie' in the present tense.

I am going to re-present the poem with all the suggestions, - maybe it will come clearer. I would be a lot happier with them and can be useful as a reference for future writes.

Thanks for all the work and  time you spend explaining something that may not come natural to us. So appreciated as always.

Ahavati
Tyrant of Words
United States 116awards
Joined 11th Apr 2015
Forum Posts: 14273

nomoth said:

Thank you so much for the response and again for the time to explain thoughtfully and thoroughly  this  thing.

And yes clearly the only thing missing is the part of my brain that should know what tense my poem is in....so you were correct the first time, but it does feel counter-intuitive to use that 'lie' in the present tense.

I am going to re-present the poem with all the suggestions, - maybe it will come clearer. I would be a lot happier with them and can be useful as a reference for future writes.

Thanks for all the work and  time you spend explaining something that may not come natural to us. So appreciated as always.


It's an honor to be a part of your evolution as a writer, Andrew. I look forward to an illustrated book soon.

Youre not alone in your feeling; the most difficult thing for many writers is to use 'lie' because of its alternate definition. You could rewrite the line into past tense if it disturbs you that much? After all, the writer needs to feel comfortable with their own work.

Valeriyabeyond
Dhyana
Dangerous Mind
3awards
Joined 3rd May 2020
Forum Posts: 2668

Ahavati said:Valeriyabeyond (Valeriya) The Passage Contains Shadows

Hi, Val. Firstly, this was a very unique take on Ai's Passage For Allen Ginsberg. Ai's contains the metaphor of riding a train to describe the life one could be living being passed by. The train ride only continues as long as desire to deviate from routine is suppressed. The rider can't be like a sunflower along the tracks reaching for potential, growing in the encouragement of the sun. She's adopted her mother's beliefs and remains discouraged by such.

Yours speaks of a man on a bus whose spirit has been deflated by his years of routine, while your narrator watches him from a bench remains optimistic. She's going places, not content to sit still, even though she is depicted as what is being passed by in a reverse sort of fashion. She is Ai's sunflower.

Your imagery and attention to detail is impeccable; you have a real gift of drawing the reader in to your landscape to experience your vision. It's a beautiful offering; however, there are several areas that could stand for improvement:

First, and most importantly is your over-use of commas. In poetry the end of each line holds a naturally brief pause; therefore, the use of a comma at the end of every line interrupts the flow of the reading, particularly when it occurs in the middle of a sentence.

Time stands to pause,
from the everyday,
the too familiar,    
the knowing, of one's heartbeat.
   

As I explained to Eerie in regards to comma useage:

ť What should not be comma'd is the following: 1) an independent clause that doesn't contain coordinate adjectives or conjunctions ( 'and', etc ); 2) an independent clause that doesn't begin with a subordinating conjunction ( 'Although', etc. ); 3) if there is no emphasis on contrast ( 'despite' etc. ); 4) if there is no condition ( 'If' etc. ).  Those are the main points but there are others.

Again, a good rule of thumb to use when determining commas is the * sentence rule *. If you were to write out the first two lines at a sentence, does it follow comma rules? Your answer should be, No.

Time stands to pause from the everyday

Thus, in the above, no commas would be needed.

Secondly, repetition. You've used 'the' three times in four lines. Could you say these lines differently to eliminate a portion of the repetition? How about something this:

the too familiar,    
the knowing, of one's heartbeat.
   

[ a ]too familiar knowing
of one's hearbeat


Thus, if you accept the recommendations, the stanza would read as such:

Time stands to pause
from the everyday—
a too familiar knowing  
of one's heartbeat.
   

Do you see how streamlined it reads? I personally added the em dash because I substituted 'a' for 'the', which altered the dynamics of the structure.

We want you to take every stanza and put it into sentence structure as demonstrated below with your second stanza:

Consistent shadows,
in their progression,
pass through Cottonwoods,
that urge me on,    
to sit on this bus bench,    
where paint peels,
into curls, off old pine boards.


Consistent shadows, in their progression, pass through Cottonwoods, that urge me on, to sit on this bus bench, where paint peels, into curls, off old pine boards.

Now read that ^.  How does it feel having to pause every two or three words? Does it interrupt the flow of the stanza? THIS exercise can teach you the benefits of NOT using too many commas. Let's take a second look:

Consistent shadows, in their progression, pass through Cottonwoods that urge me [s]on[/s] to sit on this bus bench, where paint peels into curls off old pine boards.

In the above we eliminated four commas and the repetitive word, on. Once you've grammatically corrected the stanza in sentence form, let's put it into poetic form:  

Consistent shadows
[i]in their progression

pass through Cottonwoods
that urge me to sit
on this bus bench
where paint peels into curls
off old pine boards.[/i]

Two things thing I want you to note: firstly, is that a non-essential clause or phrase which would ordinarily be set apart by commas, in their progression, can be emphasized with italics instead; secondly, look at the enjambments—have they changed at all with these suggested revisions? No, because you have an excellent grasp of that technical aspect. You just need to slay the pervasive comma useage.

We'll be checking back to see how the exercise turns out, and are very excited for the results. You can repost here or in the Classic Corner discussion thread.

Val, again, you have an excellent intake on the essence of a poem, as well as solid imagery and a good grasp of enjambment. But your punctuation really needs work, as well as your repetition. Those are the only aspects which knocked you out of placement.

Thank you for braving Ai! We hope to see you back this month for Dove and Byron!

=====




Thank you so much for your in depth critique
I appreciate it and will be working on the suggestions given

My first entry in the CCC has brought a new dimension to my work
I have focused on my own style I believed if I   write like someone else
Then it's not me or mine  it's not like that at all I was seeing the comp as if it were surrounded by barbed wire where one could only enter with a degree in English grammar

I see the way my piece flows with your suggestions
It is much easier to read comprehension is smooth with out the commas in place.

My work has always been rebellious when it came to punctuation most of my poetry was written without punctuation or caps.
I am looking forward to the rewrite and critique
Over in the CCC thread
Thanks again

Ahavati
Tyrant of Words
United States 116awards
Joined 11th Apr 2015
Forum Posts: 14273

Valeriyabeyond said:


Thank you so much for your in depth critique
I appreciate it and will be working on the suggestions given

My first entry in the CCC has brought a new dimension to my work
I have focused on my own style I believed if I   write like someone else
Then it's not me or mine  it's not like that at all I was seeing the comp as if it were surrounded by barbed wire where one could only enter with a degree in English grammar

I see the way my piece flows with your suggestions
It is much easier to read comprehension is smooth with out the commas in place.

My work has always been rebellious when it came to punctuation most of my poetry was written without punctuation or caps.
I am looking forward to the rewrite and critique
Over in the CCC thread
Thanks again


You're very welcome, Val. These critiques are designed to help you improve vs alter YOUR style of writing. Commas have a place in modern poetry, there is no doubt about that; however, it really detracts from the smoothnes of the read when they're placed at the end of each line.

You have the basics of good poetry, i.e. - connecting with the essence of a poem, etc. You also have a good command on spelling and grammar. Currently, punctuation seems to be the hurdle you need to clear.

We are looking forward to your revision and further discussion!

PoetsRevenge
Dangerous Mind
United States 28awards
Joined 30th June 2016
Forum Posts: 706

Hi, everyone, thanks so much for the support and encouragement, I really enjoyed this comp and the creative entries.  Ai's poetry is so freeform that it leaves so much room for that creativity.  I read through the critiques and they are so helpful, especially in the finer points we are learning; thanks, Ahavati.  It's one thing to read a textbook of grammar critiqued poetry, but so much more dimensional to learn with our own.

I just applied Ahavati's suggestions to mine and it is improved. The one thing I did differently though, was
I kept 'woman' and 'girl' in the last stanza, inserting an emdash.  I wanted to emphasize that the girl in the poem is actually the narrators inner child who was 'cut' by emotional trauma, and will be ironically 'refined' of the memories.  Ai's biography described how she had forgotten what happened to her until she was older and then wrote the grandfather poem.  My poem was so short that I didn't want that to go unnoticed, I hope that makes sense.  I actually had an idea for another monologue, but time got away from me so I'll work on it later. I love Ai's style, whoever nominated her, thanks!!

Congrats to the runners up, the entries were great, and thanks to our hosts Johnny and Ahavati for the amazing dedication.  I look forward to the next deep dive into transformational poetry :)

Ahavati
Tyrant of Words
United States 116awards
Joined 11th Apr 2015
Forum Posts: 14273

Hi, PR; thank you for the gracious reply, and accepting the critique in the manner it was extended.

I love your thoughts on Ai; they are spot on and I'm very happy you enjoyed her works. Rita Dove is another that I think you'll enjoy ( or at least I did ). Suppressed memories are common until one is older, and Ai worked through them with her poetry. I'm sorry you weren't able to submit another.  We give a month for the purpose of relaxed study; however, time still gets away from us as well.

In the end your poem is yours, and you have to defend the message on certain points. The reader is not going to understand every aspect, and they should've have to for a poem to be good. I have so many multidimensional layers in my own that only certain people in my life understand, and only I know the meaning of others.  A poet shouldn't feel compelled to expose every syllable of their poem. I imagine every poet has secrets they've locked away in their poetry that no one will ever know about.

I understood yours much better once you explained it, and it makes perfect sense to use the em dash in that example.

Thank you, always, for supporting the classics. We truly appreciate your participation, and look forward to your future entries.

PoetsRevenge
Dangerous Mind
United States 28awards
Joined 30th June 2016
Forum Posts: 706

Ahavati said:Hi, PR; thank you for the gracious reply, and accepting the critique in the manner it was extended.

I love your thoughts on Ai; they are spot on and I'm very happy you enjoyed her works. Rita Dove is another that I think you'll enjoy ( or at least I did ). Suppressed memories are common until one is older, and Ai worked through them with her poetry. I'm sorry you weren't able to submit another.  We give a month for the purpose of relaxed study; however, time still gets away from us as well.

In the end your poem is yours, and you have to defend the message on certain points. The reader is not going to understand every aspect, and they should've have to for a poem to be good. I have so many multidimensional layers in my own that only certain people in my life understand, and only I know the meaning of others.  A poet shouldn't feel compelled to expose every syllable of their poem. I imagine every poet has secrets they've locked away in their poetry that no one will ever know about.

I understood yours much better once you explained it, and it makes perfect sense to use the em dash in that example.

Thank you, always, for supporting the classics. We truly appreciate your participation, and look forward to your future entries.


I look forward to Rita, thanks so much for the help :)

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