Deep Underground Poetry Forums : POLL: : Chat About Poems (Page 2)

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Topic: POLL:

trysca

Lost Thinker

Member Since: 12/07/09
Forum Posts: 30

Re: POLL:
Posted on: 02/13/10 at 18:21:32 CST

to oil the stormy waters, wikipedia has some useful insights

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_verse

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meter_(poetry)

me ny vynnaf ceusel sausnec

le rayon du biscuit
(rayheinrich)

Thought Provoker

Member Since: 12/04/09
Forum Posts: 695

Re: POLL:
Posted on: 02/13/10 at 18:24:48 CST

Jack said:
—> I didn't make up my own definition of free verse

Yes, you did.

—> and I object to your condescending notion that I did.

It only sounds condescending because you can't admit to yourself that
you're wrong.

—> My definition of free verse was derived from the Oxford English dictionary,
—> which describes it as a poetic form without musical pattern, and as rhyme
—> is a form of musical pattern

I'm really trying not to sound condescending, but it's hard not to when you
confuse "rhyme" and "musical pattern".

"rhyme" - repetition of similar sounds in two or more words
"musical pattern" - ?? This isn't a standard literary term, maybe it means
something like the "flexible cadences or rhythmic groupings" which
is used below? Not that your dictionary doesn't say that, it's
just not used in any of the zillion "free verse" definitions I
dug up. So I guess it's my zillion to your one.

Here's a definition of "free verse" from the
"Concise Oxford Dictionary of Literary Terms":

"free verse (or, in French, vers libre ), a kind of poetry that does not
conform to any regular metre : the length of its lines is irregular, as
is its use of rhyme—if any. Instead of a regular metrical pattern it
uses more flexible cadences or rhythmic groupings, sometimes supported
by anaphora and other devices of repetition."

—> I think I was justified in separating it from free verse.

No, you weren't.

Don't miss the next episode of "Jack versus Overwhelming Evidence"
Hear him say: "I milked my fish today."
But... can he maintain his delusion?
Tune in next week for the startling continuation...

Mental illness isn't just a state of mind, it's a lifestyle. Let's market it. - - http://wordbiscuit.com

Jack Heslop
(Heslopian)

Dangerous Mind

Member Since: 08/30/09
Forum Posts: 729

Re: POLL:
Posted on: 02/13/10 at 18:34:17 CST

As you're now becoming rude and obtuse, I don't see why I should continue this argument. Suffice to say, I know my own mind better than you do, and I know that I am right when I say that free verse and rhyme are, essentially, two different things, and this was made perfectly clear by my poll. Everyone who voted clearly understood this and chose accordingly; you're the only one who seems baffled and discontent. Rhyme creates a musical pattern when read; that is it's intention. If it doesn't evoke a certain musicality, then what is the point of rhyme? Free verse is usually devoid of musical pattern, therefore I reasoned that rhyme and free verse are two different things. As I've already said (and which you've conveniently ignored) my definition was derived from the Oxford English dictionary. And that, I believe, is the standard definition, as opposed to the 'zillions' you dug up from the internet.

I would face him, and say simply: I am sad that you are not strong, and do not swim and sail and ski, but you have a strong soul, and I will believe in you and make you invincible on this Earth.

le rayon du biscuit
(rayheinrich)

Thought Provoker

Member Since: 12/04/09
Forum Posts: 695

Re: POLL:
Posted on: 02/13/10 at 21:32:54 CST

—> Suffice to say, I know my own mind better than you do, and I know that I
—> am right when I say that free verse and rhyme are, essentially, two
—> different things

Belief isn't the same as knowledge. Just because you think you know
something doesn't make it so. My neighbour thinks orange extension cords
can carry more power than green ones even though they both have the same
wire size. It doesn't do any good to argue with him because he "knows" it.
Same with his religion.

—> Everyone who voted clearly understood this and chose accordingly;
—> you're the only one who seems baffled and discontent.

As I've been saying all along: It isn't about the poll, it's about using
"rhyme" and "free verse" correctly.

Why is this important? (Why I'm passionate about it.)

Knowing the definitions of literary terms probably won't have any effect
on how well people write poetry. Why I think it's important is that
there are people on DU who are just getting started. If they learn the
wrong definitions here, then in the future (say an English class or
discussion group) they'll have to relearn them, will be confused, won't
be able to talk intelligently about literature... OK, maybe it's not
THAT important, but I think we owe them that.

—> Rhyme creates a musical pattern when read; that is it's intention. If it
—> doesn't evoke a certain musicality, then what is the point of rhyme?
—> Free verse is usually devoid of musical pattern, therefore I reasoned
—> that rhyme and free verse are two different things.

That sounds fine. Makes sense, etc. But that's a definition you made up
for yourself. It's not the standard definition of free verse which can
indeed be musical, have rhyme, be lyrical, etc. That's why I said you
were calling cows fish. Yes, you can have your own definition, but
nobody's going to understand you until you explain it to them.

—> As I've already said (and which you've conveniently ignored) my
—> definition was derived from the Oxford English dictionary. And that, I
—> believe, is the standard definition, as opposed to the 'zillions' you
—> dug up from the internet.

I'm sure you have an edition of the Oxford English dictionary that says that.

One of my "zillions" was:

"Concise Oxford Dictionary of Literary Terms":

"free verse (or, in French, vers libre ), a kind of poetry that does not
conform to any regular metre : the length of its lines is irregular, as
is its use of rhyme—if any. Instead of a regular metrical pattern it
uses more flexible cadences or rhythmic groupings, sometimes supported
by anaphora and other devices of repetition."

I'd venture that's better than just the regular one.
The others were from various university English departments:
U of Pennsylvania, Cambridge, Oxford, U of California, etc.

I took some time to back up my position,
to show that it wasn't just my opinion.

Can you do that?

P.S.
T.S. Eliot is a very famous poet who wrote many free verse poems that were
musical, lyrical, and had both internal rhyme and end rhyme.

An example is "Ash Wednesday".
http://www.msgr.ca/msgr-7/ash_wednesday_t_s_eliot.htm

And it's not just a few "poetry experts" who think this is free verse.
There are literaly thousands and thousands of people who consider this
free verse.

Here's an excerpt short enough to not break any copyright laws:

---------------------
Although I do not hope to turn again
Although I do not hope
Although I do not hope to turn

Wavering between the profit and the loss
In this brief transit where the dreams cross
The dreamcrossed twilight between birth and dying
(Bless me father) though I do not wish to wish these things
From the wide window towards the granite shore
The white sails still fly seaward, seaward flying
Unbroken wings

And the lost heart stiffens and rejoices
In the lost lilac and the lost sea voices
And the weak spirit quickens to rebel
For the bent golden-rod and the lost sea smell
Quickens to recover
The cry of quail and the whirling plover
And the blind eye creates
The empty forms between the ivory gates
And smell renews the salt savour of the sandy earth
This is the time of tension between dying and birth
The place of solitude where three dreams cross
Between blue rocks
But when the voices shaken from the yew-tree drift away
Let the other yew be shaken and reply.
-------------------------

Mental illness isn't just a state of mind, it's a lifestyle. Let's market it. - - http://wordbiscuit.com

Jack Heslop
(Heslopian)

Dangerous Mind

Member Since: 08/30/09
Forum Posts: 729

Re: POLL:
Posted on: 02/14/10 at 04:55:53 CST

I suppose I should have made this clearer in the poll, but as I said, everyone seemed to understand fine. Ash Wednesday employs a scattered, or 'half', rhyme scheme wherein the technique doesn't appear all the way throughout the text, thus making it distinct from traditional rhyme. I thought I'd made this obvious when I asked if you prefer 'structured' poetry or work that is more 'natural and free'. Seems I was wrong and I apologise. I suppose my perception of free verse can be surmised by this quote from Vivian Gilbert Zadel:

No, free verse can have some rhyme, but rhyme isn't required. Any rhyme in free verse cannot have a scheme or pattern, and free verse cannot have a pattern of set numbers of syllables in its lines.

I suppose a better choice would have been free verse or rhyme schemes then. I do admit to being wrong about one thing: Your own poem that you submitted yesterday is free verse, just with occasional rhyme (in my rage, I confess I didn't read your work properly). Here is a poem which I'd define as rhyme:

I Miss You by Joanna Fuchs

I miss you in the morning;
I miss you late at night.
Just to think about you
Is my joy and my delight.

I can't wait to see you;
Please hurry and come back.
You always make me happy;
You have that special knack!

And here's one which embodies free verse:

A Noiseless Patient Spider

I mark'd, where, on a little promontory, it stood, isolated;
Mark'd how, to explore the vacant, vast surrounding,
It launch'd forth filament, filament, filament, out of itself;
Ever unreeling them--ever tirelessly speeding them.

And you, O my Soul, where you stand,
Surrounded, surrounded, in measureless oceans of space,
Ceaselessly musing, venturing, throwing,--seeking the spheres, to
connect them;
Till the bridge you will need, be form'd--till the ductile anchor
hold;
Till the gossamer thread you fling, catch somewhere, O my Soul.

I would face him, and say simply: I am sad that you are not strong, and do not swim and sail and ski, but you have a strong soul, and I will believe in you and make you invincible on this Earth.

le rayon du biscuit
(rayheinrich)

Thought Provoker

Member Since: 12/04/09
Forum Posts: 695

Re: POLL:
Posted on: 02/14/10 at 15:33:25 CST

And I got carried away as usual. I shouldn't have tried to insult you,
I should have stuck to the subject. I apologise too.

Here's some (hopefully interesting) stuff about the subject that I found
on the web: When I was looking up the term "free verse", the question
kept haunting me: so, if a poem isn't free verse, what's it called?

While not the exact opposite of free verse, the closest term I found for
poetry that isn't free verse was the term "constrained poetry" or
"constrained format poetry". (Almost everyone disliked the term
"traditional poetry" because tradition is linked to a particular time
frame and culture. It has the same problem as book entitled "Modern
Poetry" written in 1880.)

Constrained poetry is defined by its constraints. So most (not all) of
the poetry that isn't free verse on DU seems to be this type:

"Poetry with a fixed number of metrical feet of the same type and a
fixed rhyme scheme".

Partial list of constraints copied from various places on web:

Length: Specific number/length of lines, stanzas, words, syllables.

Rhyme Type: Broken, chain, cross, dialect, diminishing, disyllabic, end, eye,
forced, head, imperfect, interlaced, internal, linked, mosaic, perfect, tail,
triple, etc. explained here: http://ladykathleen.com/type-of-rhymes/

Sound other than rhyme: Alliteration: head, internal, consonant, vowel;
also: end every line with "s" sound, two or more "o" sounds in each line, etc.

Character/Voice: Example: Write as if you are four years old, and had lost
your mother in an airport.

Tone: Written to sound like writer is angry, sad, etc.

Mood: Makes reader feel angry, sad, etc.

Senses: Touch, smell, taste, hearing, sight.

Also: Constrained writing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constrained_writing

A Guide to Verse Forms: http://www.volecentral.co.uk/vf/index.htm

Mental illness isn't just a state of mind, it's a lifestyle. Let's market it. - - http://wordbiscuit.com

SJ
(Disregardme)

Twisted Dreamer

Member Since: 09/30/09
Forum Posts: 40

Re: POLL:
Posted on: 02/15/10 at 11:21:22 CST

The two of you are too funny to me. I enjoy reading your banter. It lightens the mood.... I know, you two are like the cross-country version of Jerry Lewis and Dean Martin. They had a black and white comedy sketch on the tube. Hilarious stuff. You guys should you-tube it.

I live in between the raindrops. Untouched by mortal eyes. Invisible in the most ordinary way.

le rayon du biscuit
(rayheinrich)

Thought Provoker

Member Since: 12/04/09
Forum Posts: 695

Re: POLL:
Posted on: 02/15/10 at 18:35:43 CST

I got dibs on Jerry Lewis. (I here french babes/dudes really dig him.)

Mental illness isn't just a state of mind, it's a lifestyle. Let's market it. - - http://wordbiscuit.com

Stephanie W.
(Stephaniepoemist48)

Lost Thinker

Member Since: 01/31/10
Forum Posts: 20

Re: POLL:
Posted on: 02/15/10 at 21:04:00 CST

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahaha! I am hysterically laughing right now! Where others would fight about issues such as betrayal and whatnot, your argument concerning free verse was terribly entertaining!

snw<3

Louis Lee Warner
(Donchonorgo)

Twisted Dreamer

Member Since: 01/06/10
Forum Posts: 100

Re: POLL:
Posted on: 02/16/10 at 04:24:57 CST

An argument just as passioned and valiant, I assume. <3

Disposition changes perception.

Abracadabra

Guardian of Shadows

Member Since: 11/13/09
Forum Posts: 633

Re: POLL:
Posted on: 02/16/10 at 06:58:08 CST

Quitz

Betrayal and Whatnot
they stood eye to eye
their pistols a pointing
way up in the sky

Said Whatnot:
"You betrayed me
and I shall never forgive
you better shoot straight
if you wanna live"

But Betrayal boxed tricky
with an ace in his hand
he sent free verse to prison
decreed rhyming was banned

So there was nothing to fight for
no point to be made
no words left unsaid
all debts duly paid

Poetry is : Painting with Words

le rayon du biscuit
(rayheinrich)

Thought Provoker

Member Since: 12/04/09
Forum Posts: 695

Re: POLL:
Posted on: 02/17/10 at 17:15:35 CST

Stephanie W. said:
—> betrayal and whatnot, your argument concerning free verse was terribly
—> entertaining!

Thank you.
Attention is manna from heaven for me.
Pathetic but...

Louis Lee Warner said:
—> An argument just as passioned and valiant, I assume. <3

With the chant:

FREE the VERSE!
FREE the VERSE!
FREE the VERSE!

Mental illness isn't just a state of mind, it's a lifestyle. Let's market it. - - http://wordbiscuit.com

Abracadabra

Guardian of Shadows

Member Since: 11/13/09
Forum Posts: 633

Re: POLL:
Posted on: 02/22/10 at 00:19:33 CST

Please vote now - or it's off with your heads (again)

Poetry is : Painting with Words

David.S
(Viddax)

Thought Provoker

Member Since: 10/10/09
Forum Posts: 499

Re: POLL:
Posted on: 02/22/10 at 15:44:26 CST

It appears that I am in the rather interestingly sparse wminority who favours rhyme.
It may take longer to create but my mind likes to work in rhyme and flow, is that such a crime?
The mass support for free verse may be a sign of our want to rebel against constructive and formulative constraints.

Stay unstable it makes life interesting, it gets you through after you've loved and lost.

Abracadabra

Guardian of Shadows

Member Since: 11/13/09
Forum Posts: 633

Re: POLL:
Posted on: 02/22/10 at 16:05:00 CST

Interesting, brave and definitely not a crime, Viddax. But personally - although I use both - I prefer not to sit around waiting for the perfect sounding word ending to drop out of the sky and into my head. I would advise rhymers to work on a separate piece of free verse whilst they're composing. It beats twiddling your thumbs and when you're ready you can return to the rhyme whore. I used to think a rhyming dictionary was the answer, but it only leads you where you didn't think of going in the first place, which may often turn out to be destination nonsense.

Poetry is : Painting with Words

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