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Mercy Borders: Drug Trafficking

case28
Alexander Case
Dangerous Mind
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Joined 16th June 2013
Forum Posts: 2077

Every year hundreds of foreigners across the world face the death penalty in foreign countries, these are usually for serious crimes like murder and drug trafficking.  In less than 72 hours a couple of blokes, who grew up not far from my hometown, will be shot dead on an Indonesian island for drug trafficking.  These two young men have admitted to making a stupid mistake, they have spent 10 years in prison, they have been rehabilitated and have helped rehabilitate other prisoners.  Their legal campaign to reduce their death penalty to life in prison has now been exhausted and in less than 72 hours they will be shot dead.

I've been surprised by the negativity by the majority of Australians on this matter, many feel these guys deserve to die.  My mind has been torn by two arguments, firstly these guys knowingly broke the law in Indonesia, trafficking drugs from Indonesia to Australia on more than one occasion and they used herion addicts as mules.  The other side of the argument is that these men have been rehabilitated and are actively helping to rehabilitate and educate other Indonesian convicted criminals serving time in prison, and to impose a death penalty, instead of reducing their sentence to life imprisonment, would be a waste of life.

Another interesting twist is that the Australian Federal Police knew what these people, labeled by the media as the Bali Nine, were intending to do before they left their home soil, but instead of preventing the crime or catching the big fish back home when the Bali Nine returned from Indonesia, the Feds tipped off the Indonesian police, which led to their arrest in Bali and convictions of two death sentences and seven life sentences.

So while the Indonesian legal system and their president are hell bent on executing the two supposed ring leaders in the Bali Nine, along with a handful of other foreign drug traffickers this week, the Indonesian president is currently seeking clemnancy for 150 Indonesians on death row, all convicted for drug trafficking in foreign countries.

I want to hear your views on the war on drugs, drug trafficking and the heavy penalties that these crimes are dealt in foreign countries.  What are your views on rehabilitation, decriminalisation of drugs, the death penalty and do you know of any people from your own country facing the death penalty in a foreign country?

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/dateline/story/painter-and-pastor-rehabilitation-enough-halt-their-executions

fake_reality
Fire of Insight
United States 2awards
Joined 12th June 2012
Forum Posts: 1028

Well... Scripturally they seek to take others to hell with them selling their demons (drugs). To take drugs to others is seeking to bring others unto death so they seek death themselves. Personally I can only agree with the death penalty for they seek to murder. However most people are given many chances in life to repent, I can agree with being killed in 72 hours for it if they do it twice or something. They should be given one more chance not to do wrong before death, not life in prison that is a bad joke they will die anyway. Just get back to the good old day work them twelve hours a day in mines. Shame them in the street shame them in the country shame them in their family, scourge and beat them not for only God may take vengeance. Besides He does it so well why bother unless he asked. lastly we need to have a way to sort out if a person was forced to be a mule such as having there family threatened. That is the only real exception I see to the rule, no bribes no bending to get ring leaders off the hook just law.

So to sum it up I promote the death penalty if they seek to murder or have murdered however they need a first chance. Second I worry of the people who are being forced to be drug mules.

However the drug war is a joke, for there is only one way to rid ourself of violence. That is to obey the commandments of God for nothing else will save us from our well deserved suffering.

poet Anonymous

All recreational drugs should be decriminalized/legalized everywhere, these kinds of problems wouldn't exist.

case28
Alexander Case
Dangerous Mind
42awards
Joined 16th June 2013
Forum Posts: 2077

fake_reality said:Well... Scripturally they seek to take others to hell with them selling their demons (drugs). To take drugs to others is seeking to bring others unto death so they seek death themselves. Personally I can only agree with the death penalty for they seek to murder. However most people are given many chances in life to repent, I can agree with being killed in 72 hours for it if they do it twice or something. They should be given one more chance not to do wrong before death, not life in prison that is a bad joke they will die anyway. Just get back to the good old day work them twelve hours a day in mines. Shame them in the street shame them in the country shame them in their family, scourge and beat them not for only God may take vengeance. Besides He does it so well why bother unless he asked. lastly we need to have a way to sort out if a person was forced to be a mule such as having there family threatened. That is the only real exception I see to the rule, no bribes no bending to get ring leaders off the hook just law.

So to sum it up I promote the death penalty if they seek to murder or have murdered however they need a first chance. Second I worry of the people who are being forced to be drug mules.

However the drug war is a joke, for there is only one way to rid ourself of violence. That is to obey the commandments of God for nothing else will save us from our well deserved suffering.


I'm interested in your hardline Christian views, Fake Reality, because in the example I've used with the Bali Nine, one of the men on death row has become a pastor and has spent his time in prison spreading God's word and holding prayer groups for English speaking prisoners.  This man has clearly repented for his sins, so should a fellow man, a believer of God show mercy?  I do recall Jesus speaking of a loving and a merciful God in the gospel, or do your views lay firmly in the Old Testament, where God is powerful and unmerciful?

lepperochan
Craic-Dealer
Guardian of Shadows
Palestine 67awards
Joined 1st Apr 2011
Forum Posts: 14449

"The abuse of tea has taken on the characteristics of a plague. It is not only confined to men, but has
even spread to women and children. The situation is becoming very dangerous. Tea abuse...takes the form of
an imperious and irresistible craving. — a Tunisian physician in the 1930s, commenting on the effects of
tea when it first arrived in his country". Cited in The Economist (August 8, 2002)

Crack in the Rearview Mirror: Deconstructing Drug War Mythology -Craig Reinarman and Harry G. Levine

"I
N THE LATE 1970S, CRACK FIRST CAME ON THE SCENE IN THE FORM OF COCAINE freebasing. Many of its users were
stockbrokers and investment bankers, rock stars, Hollywood types, and a few pro athletes. Some of them
began to get into trouble with this form of cocaine use, showing up in hospital emergency

rooms and police stations. Congress passed new laws to extend health insurance
coverage to include drug treatment. The treatment industry expanded the number of beds available.

In the mid-1980s, crack use spread into Americaʼs inner cities among impoverished African Americans and
Latinos. Some of them began to get into trouble with this form of cocaine use, showing up in hospital emergency rooms and police stations. Congress passed new laws to extend the length of criminal sentences
for crack offenses. The prison industry expanded the number of cells available.

The new laws against crack helped to drive the most massive wave of imprisonment in the history of the United States (Bureau of Justice Statistics, 1995:Table 1.5). The number of persons incarcerated increased
each year from 1986 through 2000, highest rate of incarceration of any modern democracy. The number of
drug offenders in prison grew eight-fold, from about 50,000 in the early Reagan years to about 400,000 at
the start of the second Bush administration."  

I read this paper a couple of years ago in a drugs and alcohol counselling  class I took. it's very interesting reading.

http://www.cedro-uva.org/lib/documents/reinarman.crack.pdf

also looked at the care and rehabilitation models in countries around the world. the most successful models on many levels including physical and mental health, crime, new addicts, was Switzerland and Portugal. Portugal made drugs legal, taxed them and looked after it's addicts in an unprecedented way as described above. there are clinics where people go to twice or three times a day and inject themselves, then go live a normal life.

here in Ireland, the policy is of harm reduction, ie; leaflets on how to inject safely, needle exchanges and methadone clinics.


..and a counselling service, I happen to know a good one, if you want to fly him over and put him up til you're cured    

fake_reality
Fire of Insight
United States 2awards
Joined 12th June 2012
Forum Posts: 1028

case28 said:I'm interested in your hardline Christian views, Fake Reality, because in the example I've used with the Bali Nine, one of the men on death row has become a pastor and has spent his time in prison spreading God's word and holding prayer groups for English speaking prisoners.  This man has clearly repented for his sins, so should a fellow man, a believer of God show mercy?  I do recall Jesus speaking of a loving and a merciful God in the gospel, or do your views lay firmly in the Old Testament, where God is powerful and unmerciful?

For he is a murciful God he is the same God as in all words written by him. If he repented once he should be punished as all others for God beats us as he loves us. If he repent let him be free after he serve his suffering and time to serve the community. Follow him and watch him.
If he do it twice he backslides and, if he repents or not again he will be in the hands of God. For he makes the rest unsafe God will judge him righteous or unrightous.

Oh by the way I learned a little bit about the drugs and if I recall correctly. Cocaine is not the same of crack, it is drawn from coca leaves and goes through a lot of processes to get the drug. Crack is a loser chemical form that takes less time to get into the mind and goes out quicker. Crack is also known to be worse as it goes under more chemical treatment and is double degraded. Much like how a cigar (cocaine is usually much more degraded) is mostly tobacco and ciggerets are... 2000 or so more chemicals.

hemihead
hemi
Dangerous Mind
New Zealand 13awards
Joined 1st Nov 2010
Forum Posts: 1749

A few sound-bite sentences:

Governments should not kill people.
Government organisations shouldn't turn their citizens over to governments who kill people.
Change of heart once you have been caught should count for little.
If you have the death penalty as a punishment, you have to use it on your target audience or it is meaningless.
The killing of people is an act that belongs to the people, because their government acted on their behalf.
Isn't it strange that governments can take life, but you break the law if you get sick and want to take your own.
The Indonesian government is participating in a genocide in west Papua right now, with Australian mining interests hand in glove with their actions, so they are comfortable with a level of deadly outcomes, as are the people of both countries.
Only one approach has ever made a dent in the drug problem, if we want to call it a problem (really, the problems drugs cause, that the courts care about, are almost all about being able to fund the addiction): decriminalise, make them cheap, educate and assist.
Prisons in the Us are private, so it can be argued there are powerful interests invested in those private institutions who like the system as-is...because it provides bums on seats.

Don't fuck around with the drug trade.

kriticool
Fire of Insight
32awards
Joined 1st Nov 2011
Forum Posts: 596

what one deems heavy or excessive in one place; may be a whole different standard in another place. In The Game, risk management is and probably should be a required & understood facet of The Game. Particularly when considering one’s level of participation. Including locally and/or all the way through to internationally. It’s a zillion dollar biznuss. Like anything else, one might wanna know much (the ramifications & possible outcomes) before doing much...or even doing a little. Of course the safest “bet” is to abstain if one’s personal constitution isn’t prepared for the stress, the strain or the ability to maintain what calls for due diligence.

Careers relative to life & death are serious. Those who claim knowing about the seriousness of The Game, one would think they would know this...But, alas, all participants aren’t necessarily smart and sometimes even the smart ones place the horse after the cart. Movement becomes delayed or stymied altogether. A fucked up situation difficult to make better.  Bottom-line, don’t get caught where even the simplest “infractions” aren’t tolerated. Like a NO Parking spot getting one’s entire vehicle permanently eliminated. One has to know at the very least if that’s the way shit is situated.

So for real, for real...shit really ain’t that deep.
If one plays The Game...not at all, don’t Sleep

Aten
Paean of Deviance
Lost Thinker
1awards
Joined 25th Apr 2015
Forum Posts: 61

fake_reality said:Well... Scripturally they seek to take others to hell with them selling their demons (drugs). To take drugs to others is seeking to bring others unto death so they seek death themselves. Personally I can only agree with the death penalty for they seek to murder. However most people are given many chances in life to repent, I can agree with being killed in 72 hours for it if they do it twice or something. They should be given one more chance not to do wrong before death, not life in prison that is a bad joke they will die anyway. Just get back to the good old day work them twelve hours a day in mines. Shame them in the street shame them in the country shame them in their family, scourge and beat them not for only God may take vengeance. Besides He does it so well why bother unless he asked. lastly we need to have a way to sort out if a person was forced to be a mule such as having there family threatened. That is the only real exception I see to the rule, no bribes no bending to get ring leaders off the hook just law.

So to sum it up I promote the death penalty if they seek to murder or have murdered however they need a first chance. Second I worry of the people who are being forced to be drug mules.

However the drug war is a joke, for there is only one way to rid ourself of violence. That is to obey the commandments of God for nothing else will save us from our well deserved suffering.

You are what's wrong with the world

snugglebuck
Dangerous Mind
United States 77awards
Joined 3rd Feb 2014
Forum Posts: 1873

Alex; this is terrible.

Also keep in mind that in many of these countries you can be arrested and sentenced for drug possession when you don't possess as much as an aspirin.  Because like in Indonesia, your considered guilty till proven innocent.

In such places, westerners are often targeted for arbitrarily enforced drug laws.  Even when such drugs are used openly.

One solution to prevent these injustices is for countries such as Indonesia and Singapore is to have them blacklisted for foreign travel.  Though you'd have the right to travel to these countries, you'd be briefed and forewarned the dangers you face before being allowed to visit there.

In addition, such countries as part of their trade agreements, would be encouraged to enter in to a judicial reciprocity agreement which would require that the accused be prosecuted for any offences in their home country, and be sentenced under their home law, rather then a kangaroo court.

My heart ad prayers go out to these young men.  

Atakti
Tyrant of Words
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Joined 1st Aug 2012
Forum Posts: 3273

hemihead said:
Change of heart once you have been caught should count for little.



Really? I'm surprised at you, Hemi. How else do people get a chance to re-appraise their own insanity than to be removed from it? The purpose of prison is to isolate the problematic behavior from society, not to serve as a cess pit to throw people in to rot. If their behavior and attitude change, what's the damn point of their continued presence in prison? None.

hemihead said:
If you have the death penalty as a punishment, you have to use it on your target audience or it is meaningless.


The death penalty IS meaningless. You said it yourself, there are better ways to deal with drug users.


Why do people traffic drugs? Because there is a demand for them. Why? Why do people take drugs? To escape, to relax, to rebel – basically to change something in their lives. Instead of addressing that, people manipulate them. Let's sell them drugs and make money, let's demonise them and use them as scapegoats, let's judge them and feel superior.

I think the story above, what bothers me the most is how the Australian Feds handed them over to the Indonesians knowing full well their law carried the death penalty. And the hypocrisy of the Indonesian authorities, seeking clemency for their drug traffickers, well, fuck. A lot of judging, finger-pointing and self-righteousness, and not much compassion – humans at their worst.

hemihead
hemi
Dangerous Mind
New Zealand 13awards
Joined 1st Nov 2010
Forum Posts: 1749

Atakti said:[quote-299495-hemihead]
Change of heart once you have been caught should count for little.



Really? I'm surprised at you, Hemi. How else do people get a chance to re-appraise their own insanity than to be removed from it? The purpose of prison is to isolate the problematic behavior from society, not to serve as a cess pit to throw people in to rot. If their behavior and attitude change, what's the damn point of their continued presence in prison? None.

hemihead said:
If you have the death penalty as a punishment, you have to use it on your target audience or it is meaningless.


The death penalty IS meaningless. You said it yourself, there are better ways to deal with drug users.


Why do people traffic drugs? Because there is a demand for them. Why? Why do people take drugs? To escape, to relax, to rebel – basically to change something in their lives. Instead of addressing that, people manipulate them. Let's sell them drugs and make money, let's demonise them and use them as scapegoats, let's judge them and feel superior.

I think the story above, what bothers me the most is how the Australian Feds handed them over to the Indonesians knowing full well their law carried the death penalty. And the hypocrisy of the Indonesian authorities, seeking clemency for their drug traffickers, well, fuck. A lot of judging, finger-pointing and self-righteousness, and not much compassion – humans at their worst.
[/quote]

That's the problem with sound-bite replies: no explanation.

The first thing a lawyer will do is work out a stratagy with a client, to demonstrate contrition...and this usually/often includes being told to find god. My point is only that it is often scripted.

Second point, yes the death penalty is total shit. Not supporting it in any way, but from a governments viewpoint, if they have a death penalty law then they do have to use it for it to act as a deterrent....these guys are the deterrent.

Indonesia has signed a treaty with austrslia that says the death penalty will only be used in extreme cases, and yhe intention was to protect drug offenders....but the treaty doesn't actually specify that. Stupid shit.

lepperochan
Craic-Dealer
Guardian of Shadows
Palestine 67awards
Joined 1st Apr 2011
Forum Posts: 14449

It's a tiny bit off subject I know, but is anybody aware of the growing number of addicted dicks entering rehab.  Its ever since Durex's ' prolonged pleasure'  range lubricated the insides with benzocaine <- for fuck sake !  It's only a matter of time before a load of pussies start  trying to quit. If drug mules turn them inside out before swallowing them they'd be asleep before boarding the plane

I don't think a death sentence was meant to be a deterrent, not at first anyway. I think it was meant as a means for disposing of undesirables Legally.

There's that old adage about not doing the crime if you can't do the crime , and I am inclined to agree . sorry if people think that's heartless but try understand there are rules for everything even for breaking the rules, people know what's up before they do stuff. The two lads got caught and sentenced, they Tried work the system and lost


If you must feel sorry for people, feel sorry for the people who were innOcent when sentenced and still haven't been put out of their misery, feel sorry for those people

Indie
Miss Indie
Tyrant of Words
Australia 34awards
Joined 3rd Sep 2011
Forum Posts: 3209

As a fellow Aussie the thought that these guys are going to die for a mistake they made a decade ago makes me want to be sick. There are many worse things these guys could have done.

I know the drug trade fucks up people's lives and on one hand they can be seen as indirect murderers by supplying people with the kind of drugs that kill people (though people rarely put a gun to an addicts head and force them to take it. Addiction can be seen as a personal choice). On the other hand, how is killing people who kill people morally or ethically sound? An executioner is no different to any other murderer. If you go with that logic, why not kill the executioners for executing people? How long would it be before people stopping going down that path if death always begets death?

IMHO they don't deserve to die.

Magdalena
Spartalena
Tyrant of Words
Wales 62awards
Joined 21st Apr 2012
Forum Posts: 2993

I think the death penalty is extreme also.  Even though I've not read the case.

Most definitely they should give back into society by helping drug addicts rehabilitate, even fund causes, rehabilitation center's etc.  Help rebuild lives destroyed by drugs that they pushed.  Those things can still be done from a prison.

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