are angels really just... miserable?
alright so I've been watching Supernatural.. i love the show but it also has some truth behind it. I have read up on this topic and did my homework so i ask: Are angels miserable? here's why i'm asking this:
1) only four angels have ever seen their god's face and so all the other angels have to have "faith" or else they are cast out or killed
2) if an angel disobeys just once they are thrown out of their only home and forced to wander down here, miserable Graceless, and forsaken
3) they do not know forgiveness. if they screw up once their god will just throw them out. they have been watching us humans love and forgive and hate each other for YEARS yet cannot experience these things for themselves
4) they are expected to be regal and loyal and righteous and all powerful by everyone and they have so much weight put on their shoulders because of all these expectations and if they dont live up to them then they are thrown out
5) their number one fear is having their Grace taken away and their wings torn off their backs
6) they have so many rules and their code is so strict its unbelievable
7) they cant have sex
8) they dont know if their god truly loves them because he never shows it and only expects them to be obedient to him.
9) they cant speak for themselves or think for themselves. they can only do what they are told
10) They cant feel the things we feel or do the things we do and they've been watching us for so long it probably drives them nuts deep inside.
so am i wrong? could angels possibly be completely miserable? what do you think? i dont want to start WWIII with any serious religious debate, just what you guys think on the subject. Could this be another reason why the devil turned away from the christian god? because he wanted to think for himself and be his own person? i'm so curious to know.
1) only four angels have ever seen their god's face and so all the other angels have to have "faith" or else they are cast out or killed
2) if an angel disobeys just once they are thrown out of their only home and forced to wander down here, miserable Graceless, and forsaken
3) they do not know forgiveness. if they screw up once their god will just throw them out. they have been watching us humans love and forgive and hate each other for YEARS yet cannot experience these things for themselves
4) they are expected to be regal and loyal and righteous and all powerful by everyone and they have so much weight put on their shoulders because of all these expectations and if they dont live up to them then they are thrown out
5) their number one fear is having their Grace taken away and their wings torn off their backs
6) they have so many rules and their code is so strict its unbelievable
7) they cant have sex
8) they dont know if their god truly loves them because he never shows it and only expects them to be obedient to him.
9) they cant speak for themselves or think for themselves. they can only do what they are told
10) They cant feel the things we feel or do the things we do and they've been watching us for so long it probably drives them nuts deep inside.
so am i wrong? could angels possibly be completely miserable? what do you think? i dont want to start WWIII with any serious religious debate, just what you guys think on the subject. Could this be another reason why the devil turned away from the christian god? because he wanted to think for himself and be his own person? i'm so curious to know.
Anonymous
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The general gist may have some sense to it: an angel can only fall, but a monkey/human can climb and ascend to heaven. In other words an angel cannot go to somewhere better than heaven, but it would require an infinite sense of disappointment and pessimism to be in heaven and want more (maybe add greed then to the list of things needed to want more than heaven).
However another gist from your list is that it looks like an angel would desire to be human, which could be argued as a step backwards. Here are some answers in response and ideas for others to ponder and answer with better information.
1. An angel by simply being, is surely an embodiment of faith and therefore of God's power.
2. Are angels not an instrument of God's will? They also may not have free will but maybe they do not have the sense to disobey: nothing to gain from disobedience even in the most fundamental sense of an action that is theirs.
3. They may not know forgiveness, but equally they may not be expected to fall or be as corrupt as humans: their capability for mistake in unfeasibly small: they must have done something wrong purposefully.
4. As Angels they are the embodiment of loyalty, righteousness and regal, they are angels after all. Anything else denies their nature.
5. Their number one purpose in bathing in His glory and enjoying an eternity of Grace, a moral booster and incentive if there ever was one.
6. See previous numbers: anything other than the coded actions would prove them to be un-angelic.
7. Sex is base, the Love is God is infinitely better. At least when concerning angels.
8. The Love of God is eternal and always felt, their obedience is because God is God and nothing is greater.
9. They are an instrument of God's will and as such do not need self-awareness, and in return their power is immense and beyong that of a mortal. Choice is not required when the best option is already theirs.
10. In comparison to mortality and all the aspects of sin, thet have immortality, get to live in heaven. Mortal humans are probably rather clumsy, short-lived, weak things in comparison.
The idea of a being wanting power and as such turning against and way from perfection would fit any social driven actual-history idea of God. Also harks back to the mythology of Zeus and Chronos.
However another gist from your list is that it looks like an angel would desire to be human, which could be argued as a step backwards. Here are some answers in response and ideas for others to ponder and answer with better information.
1. An angel by simply being, is surely an embodiment of faith and therefore of God's power.
2. Are angels not an instrument of God's will? They also may not have free will but maybe they do not have the sense to disobey: nothing to gain from disobedience even in the most fundamental sense of an action that is theirs.
3. They may not know forgiveness, but equally they may not be expected to fall or be as corrupt as humans: their capability for mistake in unfeasibly small: they must have done something wrong purposefully.
4. As Angels they are the embodiment of loyalty, righteousness and regal, they are angels after all. Anything else denies their nature.
5. Their number one purpose in bathing in His glory and enjoying an eternity of Grace, a moral booster and incentive if there ever was one.
6. See previous numbers: anything other than the coded actions would prove them to be un-angelic.
7. Sex is base, the Love is God is infinitely better. At least when concerning angels.
8. The Love of God is eternal and always felt, their obedience is because God is God and nothing is greater.
9. They are an instrument of God's will and as such do not need self-awareness, and in return their power is immense and beyong that of a mortal. Choice is not required when the best option is already theirs.
10. In comparison to mortality and all the aspects of sin, thet have immortality, get to live in heaven. Mortal humans are probably rather clumsy, short-lived, weak things in comparison.
The idea of a being wanting power and as such turning against and way from perfection would fit any social driven actual-history idea of God. Also harks back to the mythology of Zeus and Chronos.
Loki, my naughty Norwegian Goddess, it all depends on how you yourself perceive sex. Since the beginning of the science of theology, there have been two schools of thought on the sexuality of angels.
Traditionally, the school that believes angels to be celibate, even sexless, also perceives sex as evil in itself. This is way of thinking was probably encouraged by the early Roman converts to Christianity who had valued the Goddess Diane for her Chasity, and thought of virginity as moral purity. Albeit the temple vestal virgins. Hopefully, within this new century, the myth of the virtuous virgin will finally become passé. All we need do to see the influence of adult Chasity, is profile the spree shooters and bombers, or the last decade. It’s enough to want you to take celebrate your 12 year old son’s birthday party at the ‘Chicken Ranch’ instead of ‘Chucky Cheese’.
But there has always been another school of thought that saw angels as very sexual beings. The forbidden fruit from the tree of knowledge has been thought to be a metaphor for sex between humans and angles. And the great flood, was caused to wipe out the off spring of such unions. Anne Rice based her book, ‘Memnoch the Devil’, on this school of thought.
This school of thought became revitalized, and took a more positive view of sexy angels during the reformation. It was further projected by a group of Lutheran’s gone wild, now called the church of Swedenborg. They see the sexual as spiritual, and their beliefs are reflected in their perception of angels. .Theological discussion on the lives of Angels is ongoing in the Church of Swedenborg. If you want to read a humorous take on this follow this link
http://thegodguy.wordpress.com/2013/04/04/betty-gets-flashed-by-an-angel-of-god/
Personally, I think Angels are happy, they must be to always be able to sing on key. And being happy, requires a little nookie every now and then. About a year ago, I published a poem in DU, called Angels & Sex. It pretty well sums up on how I feel about the whole subject.
Traditionally, the school that believes angels to be celibate, even sexless, also perceives sex as evil in itself. This is way of thinking was probably encouraged by the early Roman converts to Christianity who had valued the Goddess Diane for her Chasity, and thought of virginity as moral purity. Albeit the temple vestal virgins. Hopefully, within this new century, the myth of the virtuous virgin will finally become passé. All we need do to see the influence of adult Chasity, is profile the spree shooters and bombers, or the last decade. It’s enough to want you to take celebrate your 12 year old son’s birthday party at the ‘Chicken Ranch’ instead of ‘Chucky Cheese’.
But there has always been another school of thought that saw angels as very sexual beings. The forbidden fruit from the tree of knowledge has been thought to be a metaphor for sex between humans and angles. And the great flood, was caused to wipe out the off spring of such unions. Anne Rice based her book, ‘Memnoch the Devil’, on this school of thought.
This school of thought became revitalized, and took a more positive view of sexy angels during the reformation. It was further projected by a group of Lutheran’s gone wild, now called the church of Swedenborg. They see the sexual as spiritual, and their beliefs are reflected in their perception of angels. .Theological discussion on the lives of Angels is ongoing in the Church of Swedenborg. If you want to read a humorous take on this follow this link
http://thegodguy.wordpress.com/2013/04/04/betty-gets-flashed-by-an-angel-of-god/
Personally, I think Angels are happy, they must be to always be able to sing on key. And being happy, requires a little nookie every now and then. About a year ago, I published a poem in DU, called Angels & Sex. It pretty well sums up on how I feel about the whole subject.
ah i see. you're funny and informative Snugglebuck. Well i'm not Christian but from what i see when reading about how angels via google (okay so google really sucks) i guess they could be super happy with what they are. i guess there are different takes on angels. i mean, angels are in quite a few cultures... Valkyries in Nordic myth, Buddhist Devas, muslim malaikah, and there is the Christian angels. so with christian angels i have always sort of questioned their freedoms and if they are real i always wondered what their personas would be like. and then i thought, "what if they are actually miserable deep down because they dont have a freedom of choice?" but i guess if they're main purpose is to serve and protect and be all glorious and they are fine with what they are because they really dont know anything else, then i suppose they aren't miserable and that they would have to outright do something to get cast out. But seriously though, from what i have heard it only takes one act of disobedience to get them kicked out... the punishment doesnt really seem to fit the crime to me... but i guess its how one sees it... and i'm pretty sure an angel would fear getting its wings torn off if it did something bad... but if the angel is just good it wouldnt be worried about such things. who knows how angels feel really.. as much as i'd like to know how an angel feels deep down when it comes to serving a god it has never laid eyes on before it's all up to speculation since we cant see them or talk to them or even prove they are real.
fieryangelsouljia said:alright so I've been watching Supernatural.. i love the show but it also has some truth behind it. I have read up on this topic and did my homework so i ask: Are angels miserable? here's why i'm asking this:
1) only four angels have ever seen their god's face and so all the other angels have to have "faith" or else they are cast out or killed
2) if an angel disobeys just once they are thrown out of their only home and forced to wander down here, miserable Graceless, and forsaken
3) they do not know forgiveness. if they screw up once their god will just throw them out. they have been watching us humans love and forgive and hate each other for YEARS yet cannot experience these things for themselves
4) they are expected to be regal and loyal and righteous and all powerful by everyone and they have so much weight put on their shoulders because of all these expectations and if they dont live up to them then they are thrown out
5) their number one fear is having their Grace taken away and their wings torn off their backs
6) they have so many rules and their code is so strict its unbelievable
7) they cant have sex
8) they dont know if their god truly loves them because he never shows it and only expects them to be obedient to him.
9) they cant speak for themselves or think for themselves. they can only do what they are told
10) They cant feel the things we feel or do the things we do and they've been watching us for so long it probably drives them nuts deep inside.
so am i wrong? could angels possibly be completely miserable? what do you think? i dont want to start WWIII with any serious religious debate, just what you guys think on the subject. Could this be another reason why the devil turned away from the christian god? because he wanted to think for himself and be his own person? i'm so curious to know.
In short (and without starting World War III, at least not intentionally anyway *Giggle*)... yes, some of us wanted to think for ourselves and impart some of our knowledge unto early mankind when the time came for them to be ready for it. As I've often said... too much order will inevitably lead to chaos (and not the good kind of chaos, such as creative chaos, either) because order bereft of liberty and wisdom leads to oppressive stagnation, and in such a climate rebellion is inevitable. Milton got it right when he portrayed the rebel angels in a heroic light. Anybody, when faced with oppression, tyranny, and a life (especially a potentially eternal life) devoid of self-determination, freedom, and joy as one is able to define it for oneself... under such conditions as that, anybody I say would not just rebel but their moral conscience would demand such action as to ensure a separation from the tyranny imposed and the possibility of creating a better way of life even if it be in exile. Such was the way of it, and methinks there is not a fallen angel in existence who would not see their rebellion as a heroic act in defense of one's moral right to all the things that a free people and free society might take for granted. Now, regarding teaching mankind a bit of our ways... that happened during the "Eden" era and it was less than successful due to mankind being not nearly as ready back then as was believed. But that's another story and one not required to be related since it lies outside the scope of the question asked and my attempt to be helpful by answering it honestly. Also, never forget that one person's Devil might be another person's God and vice versa. Light and dark, good and evil are sometimes not nearly as clear cut as many would have one commonly believe. The beauty of this universe is all the colorful possibilities for variation and shades of gray amidst what would otherwise be a dull, stagnant place without such diversity. That's my thinking, anyway! *Wink*
1) only four angels have ever seen their god's face and so all the other angels have to have "faith" or else they are cast out or killed
2) if an angel disobeys just once they are thrown out of their only home and forced to wander down here, miserable Graceless, and forsaken
3) they do not know forgiveness. if they screw up once their god will just throw them out. they have been watching us humans love and forgive and hate each other for YEARS yet cannot experience these things for themselves
4) they are expected to be regal and loyal and righteous and all powerful by everyone and they have so much weight put on their shoulders because of all these expectations and if they dont live up to them then they are thrown out
5) their number one fear is having their Grace taken away and their wings torn off their backs
6) they have so many rules and their code is so strict its unbelievable
7) they cant have sex
8) they dont know if their god truly loves them because he never shows it and only expects them to be obedient to him.
9) they cant speak for themselves or think for themselves. they can only do what they are told
10) They cant feel the things we feel or do the things we do and they've been watching us for so long it probably drives them nuts deep inside.
so am i wrong? could angels possibly be completely miserable? what do you think? i dont want to start WWIII with any serious religious debate, just what you guys think on the subject. Could this be another reason why the devil turned away from the christian god? because he wanted to think for himself and be his own person? i'm so curious to know.
In short (and without starting World War III, at least not intentionally anyway *Giggle*)... yes, some of us wanted to think for ourselves and impart some of our knowledge unto early mankind when the time came for them to be ready for it. As I've often said... too much order will inevitably lead to chaos (and not the good kind of chaos, such as creative chaos, either) because order bereft of liberty and wisdom leads to oppressive stagnation, and in such a climate rebellion is inevitable. Milton got it right when he portrayed the rebel angels in a heroic light. Anybody, when faced with oppression, tyranny, and a life (especially a potentially eternal life) devoid of self-determination, freedom, and joy as one is able to define it for oneself... under such conditions as that, anybody I say would not just rebel but their moral conscience would demand such action as to ensure a separation from the tyranny imposed and the possibility of creating a better way of life even if it be in exile. Such was the way of it, and methinks there is not a fallen angel in existence who would not see their rebellion as a heroic act in defense of one's moral right to all the things that a free people and free society might take for granted. Now, regarding teaching mankind a bit of our ways... that happened during the "Eden" era and it was less than successful due to mankind being not nearly as ready back then as was believed. But that's another story and one not required to be related since it lies outside the scope of the question asked and my attempt to be helpful by answering it honestly. Also, never forget that one person's Devil might be another person's God and vice versa. Light and dark, good and evil are sometimes not nearly as clear cut as many would have one commonly believe. The beauty of this universe is all the colorful possibilities for variation and shades of gray amidst what would otherwise be a dull, stagnant place without such diversity. That's my thinking, anyway! *Wink*
fieryangelsouljia said:so am i wrong? could angels possibly be completely miserable? what do you think? i dont want to start WWIII with any serious religious debate, just what you guys think on the subject. Could this be another reason why the devil turned away from the christian god? because he wanted to think for himself and be his own person? i'm so curious to know.
Or could they perhaps be the fantasies of deluded people and religious maniacs?
Or could they perhaps be the fantasies of deluded people and religious maniacs?
As humans have been given free will to make choices, so have angels, and it was choice that caused the former angel "Satan" to fall from grace; he wanted to be God instead of working for him, so the choice was to fall away in pride. As for angels never seeing or being in contact with God, I'm going to give this passage from the Book of Job, chapter 1 as proof from the Christian perspective that they do:
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.
_______
At the start of Job's testing, Satan was actually in the presence of God and conversed with Him, and was given specific instructions for what he could and could not do to Job, based on what God would allow for what he wanted Job to learn. If Satan, a fallen angel, can see and converse with God, then don't you think those angels who chose not to fall away, and remain "employees" of God, can't do the same?
There's a lot we can't "see" with our mortal eyes, but that's the basis of faith--to believe in what we can't see and touch as tangible. How do you know you've never seen an angel? They come in all forms, and maybe some person you encountered at some point in life, was actually an angel in disguise, sent to you for a reason.
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.
_______
At the start of Job's testing, Satan was actually in the presence of God and conversed with Him, and was given specific instructions for what he could and could not do to Job, based on what God would allow for what he wanted Job to learn. If Satan, a fallen angel, can see and converse with God, then don't you think those angels who chose not to fall away, and remain "employees" of God, can't do the same?
There's a lot we can't "see" with our mortal eyes, but that's the basis of faith--to believe in what we can't see and touch as tangible. How do you know you've never seen an angel? They come in all forms, and maybe some person you encountered at some point in life, was actually an angel in disguise, sent to you for a reason.
"so the choice was to fall away in pride" ..that's not a choice, Doc it's a single option ..which technically isn't even an option at all
..angles, Baah ! Boo! this whole angle thing sounds like a tier system ..common angles, guardian angles, special angles
..angles, saints ...dead people
again I ask, what is so great about heaven that has people investing such blind faith in order to get there.
can SOMEBODY pleeease answer
thanks most much, ...happy holidays
..angles, Baah ! Boo! this whole angle thing sounds like a tier system ..common angles, guardian angles, special angles
..angles, saints ...dead people
again I ask, what is so great about heaven that has people investing such blind faith in order to get there.
can SOMEBODY pleeease answer
thanks most much, ...happy holidays
