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Thoughts on the Spirits of Old

Viddax
Lord Viddax
Guardian of Shadows
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Along the lines of Harpalycus think about the following example of centuars. A race/group/bunch of people who have never seen men riding horses before and see horsemen may well start to believe in centuars. Or, one person sees a man on a horse, describes it but does not fully convey sucessfully, another person thinks it is literally horse-man/horse-men and bingo jingo: centuars.

I think a lot of the mythological creatures rely partly on ignorance, circumstance, imagination, and lack of clarification. Putting 'here be dragons' on a map simply because it hasn't been explored properly is a good explanation as any when considering that knights fight monsters or animals and therefore dragons, and dragons must then come from somewhere.

Given the mutiple worlds theory, the a parralel universes theory,  and chaos theory (basically it is not known where an atom will be for certain), it is conceivable that such things as dragons exist somewhere and can momentarily bleed through so to speak. So, on one plane and on a world is a creature that breathes fire, there appears a gap/hole in space linking to this world, the creature is transported and rampages for a bit, a knight attacks/slays it but the creature's atoms are unstable and vanish, therefore a minute-dragon and slayer knight with little evidence.

Thereby giving the possibility that a 'spirit world' is simply another place in space with a rather shaky link to here. Or a shaky amount of possibility that tries to assert itself. I.e. a person suddenly feels utterly feral and violent as the possibility of being a violent primate aserts itself.

Occam's Razor would mean these are unlikely but still viable. Hmm, maybe even reality, possiblity and atoms pay a tax of sorts...

Harpalycus
Twisted Dreamer
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In what way does physics come from metaphysics? Define metaphysics in physical terms to begin with. Give one example of a physical fact, law or theory derived from a metaphysical principle, if there is such a thing. In what way does reality come from ethereality other than a nicely turned paradoxical aphorism and whereas matter can be regarded as 'frozen' energy, if we use the more correct term physical instead of the term corporeal there is no mystery. Finally the example of dark matter and  dark energy is a poor one as they are indeed susceptible to scientific enquiry and can be detected by their effects. How do you think we know of them? They are simply as yet unexplained manifestations of the physical. Nor is it 99%, but approximately 95% and most of that is dark energy. Dark matter makes up about a quarter of the mass-energy of the universe.  What evidence do you have to offer for the existence of angelic kingdoms and spirit families? You can term it arrogance if you wish but I will try and retain my rational and analytical mind thank you.There's an old saying. You don't have to believe in science for it to work.

Harpalycus
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Sorry, Viddax, but it is not chaos theory that you are referring to but Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, and it really only applies at the true quantum level so a macroscopic object, such as an atom (only just I grant you) is only theoretically subject to quantum effects. For an electron to tunnel through an energy barrier is part of the quantum world. for an atom to do so would be regarded as miraculous and for an dragon to attempt it would be the equivalent of the officer in the Men Who Stare at Goats who purportedly kept trying to walk through walls. Finally I am afraid that Ockham's razor does not mean that such things are viable. It says entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily. Or to put it more simply, the simplest answer involving the least number of unknowns is likely to be the correct one. Thus we know that people imagine things, misperceive objects, confabulate memories and even tell lies. This is a much more parsimonious explanation for tales of dragons than real creatures somehow tunnelling through from other dimensions, universes, planes of existence, whatever they are.  

druidicheirophant
AVARIS DEMALO
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dark matter dark energy they called it and said it made up most of the matter in the universe, metaphysics makes up the physics, and this conventional analytical points of view dont take into account the age old doctrines of esotericism and occultism, the mystery school teachings and arcane gnosis, belief in spirit beings and elemental beings, for some its a given that there is astral bodies to that fox that belongs to a family of astral beings that incarnate, there is only a sliver of peoples in the modern world that studies occult esoteric metascience, merkaba light body mysticism and astral dynamics, for example spiritual subtleties enflesh and embody into the physical dimension, its not even arguable if you know about the very ancient forms of spiritism that i for one believe is way more endowed than any modern outlet of information, if you study alien races you would soon learn that technological advancements and artifices follow spiritual ignorance, some alien races are really spiritually dead but technologically advanced, we come from different schools of learning, these arguments on both of our sides have been going on for a while

druidicheirophant
AVARIS DEMALO
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and i cant listen to much of that you to are saying based on my own experiences coupled with my knowledge about the mass cyber utopian post humanist influences with everything from technology physics robotics mathematics , cant do any of it i even know this tech is millions of years old ancient seers and shamans and the real heirophants of the mysteries could give a fuck about technology the same damn alien beings with such advanced tech guess what study your soul

Viddax
Lord Viddax
Guardian of Shadows
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Well I guess I made a hash of that, and not in a good way either, and I am big enough to admit that.
Anyway, my point was simply along the lines of parralel universes and something that is or could be close to a mythological creature. Kind of like the infinite improbality drive from The Hitchhikers Guide To The Galaxy. Where cause and effect are linked but highly unlikely.
Do not however think that I was saying the tunnelling creatures as you put it was the best answer, the most likely answer concerns not so mythological things but was still rather amazing at the time.

Now what was it Terry Pratchett said about magic, ah yes "Ninety per cent of most magic merely consists of knowing one extra fact", the same can be said for technology.

druidicheirophant
AVARIS DEMALO
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There is a real source of divinatory knowledge about races and species in the multiverse and spiritworld, and there is other perceptions in the soul to gain gnosis than physical attainments.

Harpalycus
Twisted Dreamer
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I prefer the term discussion to argument, but any such discussion seems futile to me which consists of but simple assertion. Sagan said that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Where is there any evidence of astral planes, interdimensional spirit beings, known alien civilisations and arcane knowledge? Repetition does not a valid argument make. For example, you assert once more that metaphysics makes up physics or that physics come from metaphysics. Perhaps you would define metaphysics, as you understand it, and explain exactly how you justify this remarkable claim. Can you give me one piece of tangible evidence that can be empirically investigated for your claims? As Hobbes observed, to say that a man claimed that God spoke to him in a dream is no more than to say that he dreamed that God spoke to him. The point can be extended to any claims of arcane knowledge that cannot be grounded upon some verifiable fact or evidence that is open to empirical investigation.  
To Viddax: I take your point about what you were saying and it is a good one. Though I tend to think that the majority of mythological creatures are sheer exuberant creations of human overactive agency detection, false pattern recognition, propensity to story telling and simple creativity.
I return briefly to my initial argument, that it is strange that the Mushhushshu appeared to the Babylonians, the Sumerians had the half fish half human bringers of civilisation and the Thunderbird confined itself to some North American Indians. Does this not smack of culture to you? It certainly does to me.

Astyanax
Ceejay
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I agree, Harpalycus. At the simplest level, primitive cultures created imaginary supernatural beings and events to explain natural phenomena that they couldn't understand. Why does the sun go down at night and come up each day? No one knows, so it must be Apollo, the sun god, riding a fiery chariot across the sky. What are volcanoes? Why of course, they're the chimneys of  the workshop of Hephaestus, the blacksmith god. As science developed rational explanations for such phenomena, so people realized that these gods and creatures, though ingenious and thought-provoking, were merely imaginary creations of primitive cultures - fascinating but entirely fictitious. However, for some today, dull old real life just isn't exciting enough, so they cling to or profess belief in these undeniably attractive and exciting mythical creations. No-one's ever actually seen them (certainly not those who don't believe in them) but hey, they must exist because people believed in them for thousands of years.

However, if you do believe in these fairy tales and mystical entities, presumably you go along with the primitive tribes in various parts of the world who still today torture small children to death because they believe they've been possessed by evil spirits.

Viddax
Lord Viddax
Guardian of Shadows
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I would agree with you Ceejay but say that there are people who now turn to the realm of aliens to blow away the cobwebs of mundanity.

One thing that comes to mind though, if these older culutres and people did pretty much the same thing we do now (eat, sleep, live, die) and created such mythologies, is the bland truth of reality a good enough reason to completely eradicate such things? In other words, if we reuse and update such mythologies would that be good enough and have enough respect or are things past best left in the past.

Even though the Sun goes up and down due to the Earth's orbit, there is still a chance to rework in Apollo somehow.

Harpalycus
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An interesting idea, Viddax, but there is a hint of the is/ought fallacy about it. If peoples in the past held slavery to be a normal, even proper (vide Aristotle) societal structure would that be regarded as a reason to allow it to continue? And rest assured we have our own mythologies. Fragmented perhaps in this increasingly jumbled world, but held as both important and unassailably true, to the extent that much is unquestioned. How many myths do I believe without even realising it? At the risk of offence, consider the Catholic Church, with its array of angels, saints, demons and miracles, its hagiographic tales, its mysteries of transubstantiation, the trinity the atonement and the very nature of Christ. And compare with 'pagan' mythology. Ultimately mythology works on three levels. Simply as a natural outpouring of human beings' story telling, as an explanatory mechanism, as Astyanax observed, which we still have, especially in the case of science, and above all, as a coping strategy. It gives agency to natural phenomena and hence a degree of control, or perhaps influence would be a better word. If a tsunami is caused by an earthquake initiated by the movement of plates overcoming the inevitable friction, then the tsunami happens, no matter what we do. But if it is the anger of Poseidon then, if we make the correct propitiatory sacrifices and pay him his due respect, we may be able to ameliorate his wrath. In other words there is the religious dimension. And we still have that in spades.

BoFantastic
Thought Provoker
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did you know that you can trap a spirit into an object and keep it there? a lot of spirits are actually trapped in crystals, stones, trees, and certain animals, and other objects. do you know how to trap a spirit? how to hunt one down and capture it and force it to do your bidding? well, they been doing this since time began on Earth and other planets in other galaxies. that's why some people become vegan or vegetarian or prohibit the eating of certain animals, it's because of those spirits. do you want to trap a spirit? do you even know that YOU are a trapped spirit? YOU ARE.

Harpalycus
Twisted Dreamer
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To be honest I do not understand what is meant by the word spirit. It has different definitions and meanings to different people. As, I suppose, do all words to some extent, but spirit is much more diffuse and uncertain than most. I would be interested in your understanding of the term. And no, I certainly do not know that spirits can be trapped in objects and I would be delighted to hear your evidence for such a remarkable claim. I am afraid that capital letters cannot stand in valid place of argument.

snugglebuck
Dangerous Mind
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Loki my love,

You just strummed my chords, big time!

It was because of my fascination of mystical powers of animals that inspired me to write poetry.  Particularly, poetry about deer.  In fact, I could go on and on, retelling folk stories on how deer, can transcend the dimensions of earth and heaven.

The first poems I ever wrote, some 30 years ago, were exclusively about deer, and their spiritual powers.  Every now and then, I dig one up and post it on DU.

They include Antlered Avenger, The Might Sadhuzag, Finale Season, and They Ran with the Deer, are a just a few I’ve thrown about.  And I’ve discovered a couple of things on my journey, such stories, whatever corner of the globe they originate, have too much in common to be coincidence.

On this subject, I could go on and on, but as an aging man, I BS too much.  Which is why my loved ones frequently tell me to shut up.
But I will bore you with one more little deer thing.  I recently wrote a little SA on a personal experience I had while researching the mystical powers of deer, on another site.  I won’t take up any more space on this form, but I will repost it in my Poems.  It represents just a little of my fascination with the spiritual powers of God’s creatures.
P.S.  And now that you’ve mentioned the ‘other-worldly’ powers of the Fox; be warned Loki; he is a creature devious.
Just ask the Gingerbread Man or Jesus.
“Herod that Fox!”



HHMCameron
BetaWolfinVA
Fire of Insight
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Joined 17th Oct 2014
Forum Posts: 315

The multiverse hypothesis encompasses a vast array...

points of divergence happen every decision....

magic, science or both is a common point of divergence in literature

in truth, your contentention that other universe's denizens would not have any degree of commonality with ours is... incorrect

"The number of the beast" by robert anson heinlein is probably the most enjoyable way to be introduced to the concept.


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