a turn to religion, anarchy or enlightenment?

When I said I don't believe in a Creator I meant that I don't believe in any of the Gods we have come across (created).  They all act too much like man; jealous, petty, vengeful, and playing favorites.  This sounds like the work of man, not a God, to me. If I must subscribe to a God it shall be the ever dwindling God of The Gaps.  Where knowledge lacks God fills in the Gaps.  Adversely, the more we know the more we command and God turns over the reins. The mind of a being that could create all of this with its beauty, order, and complexity is uncountable magnitudes beyond anything our minds can comprehend so what makes us believe it would share our myopic views and limitations of thought?  If you were an eternal undying being all of those aforementioned negative character traits would be non-existent.

Also, if the Creator entity is all-knowing and all-powerful then Free Will is an illusion.

PierreTheMad said:[quote-278214-lepperochan]"He also emphasized that all men are bad and the reason they do good is because of fear, out of necessity and the benefits for themselves"

nah, utter cods-whallop. that's the thing about quoting people. at the end of the day they're just people. anyone who starts a sentence off with or includes all men or all women or all people in one should just be quiet

Only Sith deal in absolutes.[/quote]


...Goa'uld make the Sith look like a bunch of crazy Somalian pirates

I kinda agree about the Creator.  Even though the possibilities are endless in the context of the hows and whys a big bang occurred, all evidence would suggest that before it did occur our little  planet was part of something much bigger.

sometimes I wonder if we're alive by chance, on a piece of debris that just happened to be pulled into the right environment to facilitate life. it seems the more answers offered by scientists, the more questions arise

I do know that on occasion I get the feeling that we are part of something special, part of the beat and pulse of the whole universe , those feelings are especially prominent on nights sitting outside when there is a clear sky and taking in the first breaths of fresh air on mornings before the hustle bustle of of life drowns out the sounds

I don't think that any entity that has included us in this cycle is looking for us to thank it five times every day, or every other day, or every Sunday, nor do I believe that the entity would be especially proud of us.

I do believe that we are young and that it could be another thousand lifetimes before we even start to understand who we are, that said I have my doubts that we will make it that far down the road


my idea of a utopian society would be to have no static abodes, no houses or generated electricity or anything that would make us settle down. no countries or schools or gods or rulers. we've built up a society that needs these things ...for our own good. reality is we don't neeed anything except sustenance which is provided by the planet  

   

PierreTheMad said:I've done some extensive research on the subject and i do have some things i believe. I believe in a God or some First or Supreme Intelligence. I don't believe it gives a shit one way or another how we live our daily lives nor does it want to dictate what types of food we eat. Those things are for our own experience (science, from Latin "to know") to show us. I do believe it guards the doorway between the material world and the spiritual one. Hell its just a scare tactic and religions (excluding Buddhism) are just tribal knowledge poised on from the tribal leaders. But this is no reason to put it down. Tribal knowledge. It was limited but it was the science of its day, the gleaned information put into a form to be accepted by the masses. It simply must be understood in context of when it was put down and respected as a step in our development as a human race. The danger in religion is when we take it to be the absolute and final truth when it comes to reality. That's where the problem starts. God didn't create Man in His image but Man created God in his to justify his atrocious behavior.

Most of that should make sense but it is late and I'm a bit tired.

We will all be judged one day. That I believe.

i honestly believe we make our own hell on earth with our evil actions. our neighbors judge us justly, we judge ourselves justly (for the most part) so i think a metaphorical or even metaphysical hell and heaven isnt even necessary whether it may exist or not. if we do evil and contribute to the worlds existing evil that just feeds the beast and makes the world that much more evil for everybody who has to still live here after we die. including our own families. its like if you do shitty things in life all those who model themselves after you are going to do those same kind of shitty things creating a cycle. and that shits textbook... im just saying... can we only do good for the sake of not making the world worse or do we really need to think that if we dont do good were going to wind up burning.

PierreTheMad said:
Only Sith deal in absolutes.
While the Jedi sit idly by.
All the interesting and enticing powers are on the 'dark' side of the force.

If the human race can make the world a paradise, a better place then the concept of an afterlife: a better place after here, would not be needed or deisred so much.
Which it must be admitted that as a race we have finally cottoned on to the idea of using nature as a power source: solar, wind turbine, sea.
Though we have far to go before mastering such things to fully support us. Plus an elemental based religion/religions would be more suited. (Using elements + elements referrenced in everyday life = fusion mix = development?)

PierreTheMad said:

Also, if the Creator entity is all-knowing and all-powerful then Free Will is an illusion.

It is illusive in the larger scheme of things.
I would rather define what's available as limited will and not as free will.  At the point of accepting any higher entity in which it defines a lifestyle of predetermined choices; free will becomes non existence.

I'm going to throw this out there for anyone who'd like to explore more.

Aren't we all born an atheist?  More precisely as 'weak atheist' since they don't have the refined mental ability to make choices for themselves, where a 'strong atheist' has studied to some degree to make clear choices.

i would say were all born ignorant, not atheist, atheism, usually, is a planned and well thought out withdrawal from religion, not a backlash of ignorant peoples who have at the very least studied to even some degree.

it is quite interesting how you said that in the midst of a higher power we all work under it in a predetermined fashion. much like how a city works in normal everyday life... in a city all people normally move through the system everyday in the same way through life never breaking the cycle that makes the city live. in this example we are all a small part of this living, breathing, entity.
i however do not agree that we have any form of limited free will. if somebody decided to stop going to work in the city example and just sit at home and do whatever the city organism loses a voluntary but nonetheless important piece. if enough people do this as we do see happen do to any number of things from severe injury do to a dangerous situation you voluntarily put yourself in, to just voluntarily deciding to work from home, to voluntary drug addiction etc. etc. etc. then the city organism no longer exists thus a normal daily life ceases to continue because it was not forced to continue by the given higher power of normal daily life.

OK, consider this:

If the Creator is all-knowing and all-powerful, from the moment It created us It knew every possibility; every future, every action, every reaction, including how it all will end. It knows the exact workings of causality.  That means that It knew each thing that would happen to us and how those things would affect us and shape us etc.  This also means that since all of these things were known to It at the moment of our creation that all of these things are intended, all of these things are because it made it so.  There can be no true Free Will because It knew all of the possible outcomes even before It created everything, including us... and It created us (and everything) anyway.  It knew the evil we would do. It knew the good.

So this brings us to only two conclusions:
1- Either it is an impersonal force (entity) and has no emotional investment in our daily lives; it doesn't care about right or wrong...

Or...

2- It does care about right and wrong but it is the origin of both and therefore it is responsible for the existence of both and cannot hold us responsible for carrying out what it already knew was going to happen.


Believing that someone will pay for their crimes is simple ego gratification.

PierreTheMad said:OK, consider this:


So this brings us to only two conclusions:


1- Either it is an impersonal force (entity) and has no emotional investment in our daily lives; it doesn't care about right or wrong...

Or...

2- It does care about right and wrong but it is the origin of both and therefore it is responsible for the existence of both and cannot hold us responsible for carrying out what it already knew was going to happen.


Believing that someone will pay for their crimes is simple ego gratification.  But maybe that's just me.



Mr The mad, was that?  ...did you just throw down an absolute ?

Here's some interesting science behind free will. A neuroscientists can now predict what you will do four seconds before you do it.

http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2013/03/27/3724727.htm

lepperochan said:[quote-278417-PierreTheMad]OK, consider this:


So this brings us to only two conclusions:


1- Either it is an impersonal force (entity) and has no emotional investment in our daily lives; it doesn't care about right or wrong...

Or...

2- It does care about right and wrong but it is the origin of both and therefore it is responsible for the existence of both and cannot hold us responsible for carrying out what it already knew was going to happen.


Believing that someone will pay for their crimes is simple ego gratification.



Mr The mad, was that?  ...did you just throw down an absolute ? [/quote]

These are the things that make me "the Mad".


case28 said:Here's some interesting science behind free will. A neuroscientists can now predict what you will do four seconds before you do it.

http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2013/03/27/3724727.htm

Very Intriguing.

Austin_Rura said:i honestly believe we make our own hell on earth with our evil actions. our neighbors judge us justly, we judge ourselves justly (for the most part) so i think a metaphorical or even metaphysical hell and heaven isnt even necessary whether it may exist or not. if we do evil and contribute to the worlds existing evil that just feeds the beast and makes the world that much more evil for everybody who has to still live here after we die. including our own families. its like if you do shitty things in life all those who model themselves after you are going to do those same kind of shitty things creating a cycle. and that shits textbook... im just saying... can we only do good for the sake of not making the world worse or do we really need to think that if we dont do good were going to wind up burning.


Yes, an excellent point and this is why religion was created. A way to govern large populations of people was needed and this had to be backed by an absolute authority that dealt out absolute punishments. The very first laws developed from societies that had to establish the basic underpinnings of what makes a society: collaboration, security, and growth. But the first societies collapsed because when their rules showed favoritism to the particular ruling class (which always occurs) then the ruled rose up and questioned their ability to govern.  There was dissent and eventually the inner turmoil led to a lack of cohesion which was all a better formed nation would need to topple the other. Nations fell prey to other nations that felt more of a bond (collaboration).  A nation with a stronger bond (collaboration) had a greater total identity (security) which made them stronger because each part (person) was a piece of the whole. That is the strength and benefit of having "God" as the rulemaker.  He is beyond reproach because he is perfect and if something is happening it is either because "He wills it to be so" or that it is "of the enemy."  If He wills it to be so then you must accept it and even thank him for it.  If it is "of the enemy" then it must be destroyed to please him and continue His power and yours by extension (growth). This is also why, in The Bible, it is said that one should both love and fear God.  These are the two ways to motivate people to do desirable things (things that promote the three underpinnings) and refrain from doing the undesirable things (things that take away from the three underpinnings).  Love is the reward, aka Heaven.  Fear is the punishment, aka Hell.  Both are required for governance.

Austin_Rura said:i would say were all born ignorant, not atheist, atheism, usually, is a planned and well thought out withdrawal from religion, not a backlash of ignorant peoples who have at the very least studied to even some degree.

You would be surprised how quickly that turns into a religion as well.